Plouffe and player needs
Got into a short Twitter discussion with Nick Nelson yesterday regarding this list of Twins players who will be playing winter ball. Nick's comment:
According to @LaVelleNeal, the #Twins asked Trevor Plouffe to play winter ball this year and he declined. Hard to understand that...
I responded:
If your boss asked you to go to Venezuela for three months, what would you say?
Turns out that Twitter isn't the best place to try to communicate a multi-layered argument, so my later responses weren't all that illuminating. I'll explain better what I mean below the jump.
Nick's point is that plenty of players do agree to go to winter ball, and that not doing so might be a problem for Plouffe, given that he's not yet an established major-leaguer. My support for Plouffe's decision runs along two general lines:
1. General issues with just doing what the team tells you.
The past few seasons, and this past season in particular, has done a lot to illuminate the idea that maybe a big-league team doesn't always know what's in the best interest of their players. Mysteriously misdiagnosed ailments, curious decisions on when to demote a player to AAA and when to bring him back to the major league club, shuffling players between positions seemingly heedless of whether or not the player has the skillset to contribute at that position. A lot of people have commented that the Twins seemed clueless under Bill Smith, and frankly, I don't see that as being just a Bill Smith thing -- it's a system for the Twins, so if the system is clueless, why listen to it?
More importantly, just because a player chooses not to play winter ball doesn't mean that player isn't still working out, keeping in shape, or doing things to improve his game
The counter to that is that the system decides what your future is, and if the system wants you to go to winter ball, you generally do that, which is a point that Nick tried to make in response to mine. That brings up the more specific line:
2. Plouffe is in a position where playing winter ball doesn't really help him, professionally or financially
Plouffe was the starting SS for the Twins for nearly the entire last month of 2011. Granted, the Twins didn't win a whole lot during that stretch, but then again they didn't win a whole lot at all in 2011. Indications are that Plouffe may well be considered the #1 guy in the depth chart at SS right now; he's certainly ahead of Alexi Casilla, and may even be ahead of Nishioka given the latter's lack of arm strength. (What to do about Nishioka is going to be one of the hot topics of the 2011-2012 Hot Stove League.) If Plouffe really is the front-runner for SS, playing winter ball has a really good chance of hurting that status -- he might suffer an injury, or have a bad hitting stretch that raises questions about his offense, or otherwise do something to harm that status. Staying home and working out does none of that.
More to the point, the Twins ask players to play winter ball specifically because they don't *pay* them to play winter ball -- playing on a winter league team isn't terribly lucrative, and I imagine players who don't already have a situation in a winter league country (such as Liriano playing in a Dominican winter league, where he's basically going home) may end up paying for the privilege. I suspect that's another reason Plouffe declined to travel.
And if the Twins decide that Plouffe's refusal to play winter ball is grounds for letting him move on, well, Plouffe's still a former top-20 draft pick, and it's likely some other organization will at least take a rider on him. Plouffe's career is far from over if the Twins give up on him.
Those are really the points I was shooting to make, only trying to do so 140 characters at a time.
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Good points...
If Plouffe is out of options in a position of weakness, it makes more sense to stay in shape. The Twins are going to get a free agent no matter what he does in Winter ball. If they don’t he’s in a good position to compete already.
"I couldn't do that. Could you do that? Why can they do it? Who are those guys?"
Probably not the best way to endear yourself to management
I see his point, and being out of options, there isn’t a way they can “teach him a lesson” unless he sucks so bad that no one claims him on waivers… Then again, Gardy can (and will) jerk him around even if he is the superior SS option. That certainly won’t help his bat. The kid needs to bat every day.
by diehardtwinsfan on Nov 10, 2011 4:49 PM EST reply actions
If Plouffe is the best option we have at SS next spring...
…then Terry Ryan is no better of a GM than Bill Smith was.
"...and we'll see ya tomorrow night!" - Jack Buck, Game 6, 1991 World Series
by WindyCityTwinsFan on Nov 10, 2011 5:13 PM EST up reply actions
The only way Terry Ryan can undo the damage Bill Smith did to the Twins is to invent a time machine.
by Brady Eyestone on Nov 10, 2011 5:46 PM EST up reply actions
funny you should say that
Because I was thinking yesterday about which of the Smith deals I would undo if I had a time machine.
And I have to say, I don’t think I would undo the Santana trade. Or rather, I don’t think I would undo it unless the rumored packages from Sox and Yankees were real. But I have to think they weren’t because even Bill Smith would recognize that you take Ellsbury or Hughes/Cabrera over GoGo and a gaggle of crap pitchers. So I’m assuming he got all he could. Santana wanted out and we weren’t going to pay him, so I’m leaving that in place.
But I would definitely undo the Delmon Young trade, which means that Garza’s still in the rotation, and Bartlett at short. That means no trading for Hardy unless you’re going to move him to third or second, which seems unlikely. Which means you’re stuck with GoGo. Maybe you could trade him for a crap reliever or two? Maybe even for Capps? That would be okay with me when the throw away position player is a superfluous speedy outfield who can’t hit with no smarts for the game rather than your contingency plan at catcher.
Which means you can afford to undo the Ramos trade so you have a back up catcher with long-term potential. And you have a short stop (yeah, assuming that he could be retained that long), so you don’t have to spend any money on Nishi, meaning you could resign Hudson or go after someone like Michael Young.
But you also have Garza in the rotation (again, assuming longevity), so that probably means you aren’t interested in signing Pavano, so, alas, no Pavstache.
Anyway, that’s a long way of saying the major screw up was the Delmon Young trade. Without that, so many of the other holes don’t need plugging so the other bad decisions don’t get made.
That's how I see it
I was in favor of the Santana trade at the time. It looked like we would get more value than two draft picks. In hindsight, it would have been better to wait for picks. But hindsight is 20-20.
Otherwise, everything hinges on the Delmon trade. That set off a string of events that caused him to scramble. Some of that scrambling was good work (acquiring and signing Pavstache, acquiring Hardy). Some of that scrambling hurt us worse (Capps).
The thing that makes just how bad the Delmon trade was is what the two teams got in return for their respective parts.
For Garza, the Rays got pitcher Chris Archer shortstop Hak-Ju Lee. Also catcher Robinson Chirinos and outfielders Sam Fuld and Brandon Guyer. For Bartlett, the Rays acquired Cesar Ramos and Adam Russell.
For Delmon, the Twins acquired Cole Nelson and Lester Oliveras.
If the Twins had simply held onto Garza and Bartlett and traded them for what the Rays got when the time came, all of the holes we need to fill this offseason would be filled for a fraction of the cost. As it is, Oliveros is a long shot to help in the bullpen and Nelson is not even in our top 20 prospects, according to DP.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Yep
If I could undo any of his trades, it would have been the Delmon trade.
Although, I’ve often thought if the Twins had just found a way to keep Torii Hunter, the Delmon young trade would never have happened, and we’d have Torii, Bartlett, and Garza! But I guess that wasn’t realistic.
"It happened in the moment, and it happened." - Carlos Gomez
Torii was a nice player
But he wasn’t worth his market value to the Twins, who were a budget operation at the time.
If they had him today, however, there would be little excuse for letting him go.
And we wouldn't have been able to afford Mauer.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
#OccupyTwinkieTown
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Nov 11, 2011 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
If Plouffe is the Twins starting shortstop next year
I am seriously finding a new favorite team.
"It happened in the moment, and it happened." - Carlos Gomez
That is, barring some sort of miraculous improvement on Pluffe's part
But I don’t expect that to happen anyway.
"It happened in the moment, and it happened." - Carlos Gomez
Chances of Randball Stu making a reference to a former Twin this offseason: 99.9%
Chances of Trevor Poluffe being shortstop on Bert’s birthday: About as good as snow falling on Target Field in the middle of August.
I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew
Champagne SuperTolbert Saves the day!!!
I don't think LNP has signed with any team yet.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
#OccupyTwinkieTown
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Nov 10, 2011 7:07 PM EST up reply actions
He just wins...
That’s it. Perfect backup M.I.
Why don't you give me a paper cut and pur lemon juice in it

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
by cmathewson on Nov 10, 2011 7:36 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
+1000000000
That is one of my all time favorite movie references.
"live EVERY week like it's shark week" Tracy Jordan(30 Rock)
by carlpavanosmoustache on Nov 11, 2011 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
Plouffe does have a better arm than Nishioka...
Plouffe’s throws go all the way into the seats!
"It happened in the moment, and it happened." - Carlos Gomez
by myjah on Nov 10, 2011 5:54 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
Position change
A few people’s 2012 lineups have penciled in Plouffe as an option for right field. I wonder if playing the outfield was part of the request. If I was concerned about winning an everyday position, I would do what I could to make myself as versatile as possible. And playing the outfield all winter, with a gaping hole on the roster in right field, would make a lot of sense. Especially for an organization that applauds players that willingly play a bunch of positions. Maybe he is just set on playing short? Or maybe he is trying to move himself to a different organization? Hard to say.
If Trevor's made up his mind that it's SS - and only SS for him...
Man, is he gonna be pissed when he sees Manny Ramirez lined up out there in Spring Training.
It's either going to be a position change or buh-bye.
He can easily be a part of a three-four team, 12-16 player blockbuster deal that causes Jesse to go on a banning spree at Twinkie Town, but ends up leading to a World Championship for us with the player we hated being MVP.
I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew
Champagne SuperTolbert Saves the day!!!
I should clearify myself here
The banning spree is basically overuse of the seven words you can’t say on Television, but can use in gamethreads when a Twins Player makes an error.
I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew
Champagne SuperTolbert Saves the day!!!
what is it with people and position changes
You make changes to places where their bat becomes an asset, not a liability. I’d much rather he work on his defense a bit, as his bat is an asset at short or second.
by diehardtwinsfan on Nov 11, 2011 8:13 AM EST up reply actions
Players generally are what they are by age 24
Defensive improvement is rare after that age
Plouffe would be okay as an OF or 1B
He played both last season.
"It happened in the moment, and it happened." - Carlos Gomez
This is true
Obviously the best option is not having Plouffe play for the twins at all. Just saying…
"It happened in the moment, and it happened." - Carlos Gomez
If they said "Venezuela" to me, I'd say "no" too
“Anti-American demagogic government” and “kidnapping, etc.” are not risks one should have to accept to play baseball.
by BD57 on Nov 10, 2011 7:02 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I haven't liked Trevor Plouffe since the moment I'v read his blog......
8 AM sound asleep
10 AM Light peaks through curtains realize its still morning go back to sleep
12:30 PM Get up out of bed go make breakfast, or just eat whatever she makes me…
3 PM go work out and play baseball
5 PM play video games
7 PM more baseball
10 PM part and drink beer
12 AM start proccess over.
the end
I hate Plouffe, always have
Yoenis Cespedes
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=15469
^ the bottom video ^
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Nov 10, 2011 7:23 PM EST reply actions
Maybe he's cleaned it up
but that’s not what it says anymore.
by archie2227 on Nov 10, 2011 7:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I think he edited it
Which is something that we need here at SBNation.
I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew
Champagne SuperTolbert Saves the day!!!
hate is a strong word
how about was disencouraged about this and his work ethic from the begginning of time.
Yoenis Cespedes
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=15469
^ the bottom video ^
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Nov 11, 2011 12:50 AM EST up reply actions
I hate Plouffe too.
Okay, maybe not hate. Maybe more like “extremely dislike”.
Why does anyone like him? What the hell is his redeeming value?
"It happened in the moment, and it happened." - Carlos Gomez
We get to say, "PLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOUFFE!" at baseball games.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
#OccupyTwinkieTown
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Nov 11, 2011 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
True
every team needs that player who sounds like he’s getting booed when the crowd is cheering for them. Oh, wait, in Plouffe’s case those were boos.
Plouffe
I think Plouffe has shown he can’t play shortop. His arm is too erratic and isn’t above average at any other skill. He might be an okay hitter, but I don’t think he can ever be a big league shortstop
by Alexi Casilla All-Star on Nov 10, 2011 9:57 PM EST reply actions
Unfortunately, I think you're right
Why can’t he play right field, though? I suppose because his bat won’t play well out there. I thought maybe second base, but we saw the same erratic arm over there. That, incidentally, is a problem he’s had since we drafted him.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
This bat will play in right...
… at least relative to collection of players the Twins trotted out the right field this season. I trust his bat more than Dinkleman, Tosoni or Repko. I just don’t think he will be able to provide adequate defense. Granted, he should at least be able to provide Delmon Young level defense, but I doubt much better than that. Cuddyer was at least average after his switch to the outfield primarily due to his strong, accurate arm. Plouffe doesn’t seem to have the same talent for throwing the ball. Though maybe it won’t matter with Span and Revere covering 90% of the outfield.
The throws from infield are completly
different then the outfield. He just needs practice.
by b1 on Nov 11, 2011 5:49 PM EST up reply actions
Plouffe played well at second
that is where he should be playing next year, not SS
Winter ball is a nightmare...
Pay is crappy… few people speak english… playing time is inconsistant… games are meaningless (to us)… medical care/ treatment is subpar…
Usually, if an american player goes at all, it is only for a month anyway.
Plus, Plouffe was ailing with a slight strain in his right shoulder and his right quad was giving him trouble… playing this off season will do nothing for him.
Twins need to beef up Australia winter ball
They seem to have a good scouting relationship.
In an interview with 1500
Terry Ryan said Plouffe will play OF and DH going forward.
"I learned something yesterday. No use in having rules if there's no punishment for breaking them. You'll be fine if you bite down on the trigger. Enjoy your breakfast."
Good thing we gave up Thome then
He’s got his WS ring and we don’t have to put up with his attitude anymore and replacing all those HR balls all the time.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
#OccupyTwinkieTown
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Nov 13, 2011 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
The cost of balls and thrown bats alone...
Might get them an upgrade in the bullpen.
by spanspanspan on Nov 13, 2011 2:17 PM EST up reply actions
Any more details?
Did it sound like Ryan was going with him as the opening day RF?
by spanspanspan on Nov 13, 2011 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
Thank God.
It would be even better if they just got rid of the guy but can’t have your cake and eat it too.
"It happened in the moment, and it happened." - Carlos Gomez
Mackey
Said it means Cuddyer won’t be back.
by spanspanspan on Nov 13, 2011 5:46 PM EST up reply actions

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