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The Twins have a potential ace in the fold already


As Twins fans we've been clamoring for a #1 starter all year long.  Barring a trade for an established guy like Felix Hernandez, Cole Hamels, or Zack Greinke, this has led to plenty of speculation about trading for "upside" guys like Jonathan Sanchez, Ubaldo Jimenez, Edinson Volquez, or even signing guys like Rich Harden or Erik Bedard.  And I'm not opposed to any of those, but lest we forget we do have a potential ace in house.  

Star-divide

Yep, Francisco Liriano.  I know many fans will roll their eyes, thinking "we've seen what Liriano can do" after such a poor 2011 season.  I would dispute that.  It's all about innings/injury, if you ask me.  I'll show you what I mean:

In 2006 Francisco Liriano burst onto the major league scene fully and was one of the most dominant pitchers many of us have ever seen.  Then of course the Twins rushed him back, delaying surgery, and he ended up having to undergo Tommy John surgery.  Many wondered if he would ever be the same again, and, well, he hasn't.  But that doesn't mean that he hasn't been good.

In 2008 Francisco Liriano returned, and put in a very respectable year for a return year from Tommy John surgery.  He posted a 7.93 K/9, 3.91 ERA, and 3.87 FIP.  While not the dominant pitcher he once was, he was a very solid pitcher.  The problem, in my mind, was that the Twins had him throw 199 innings (minors and majors), in his first year back from Tommy John surgery.  That seems extremely high, especially for a guy that had never pitched more than 156.2 innings in a year before.  EVER.

So what ensued in 2009?  Liriano complained of a dead arm all year long, and posted a year with an 8.03 K/9, but with an ERA of 5.80 and a FIP of 4.87.  Obviously some bad luck was at play with that last disparity, but he clearly was not the same pitcher in 2009.  Between stints on the DL, Liriano was only able to pitch 136.2 IP.  Which, in my mind, would have been a good amount of innings for him to throw in 2008, his first year back from Tommy John surgery, for a guy that hadn't pitched in 2 years and had never thrown even 160 innings in a year.  Liriano's velocity still had not returned, and his control was poor all year, two big signs of arm injury, confirmed by his DL stints and his own statements about a "dead arm".  Most scouts say that the two greatest signals of injury are velocity and control.  Liriano had both.

In 2010, armed with proper rest, Liriano's velocity and effectiveness returned.  He did a stint in winter ball and pitched around 50 innings, highly effective innings.  He was primed for a big year but many fans were concerned about him wearing down the stretch with such an added load and the fact that he had only pitched 136 innings in 2009.  Many called for skipping starts for him or easing him out of games early to keep him fresh for the Twins' stretch run in 2010.  The Twins did none of these things.  Liriano pitched 191.2 innings (in addition to approximately 50 innings in winter ball), his velocity returned; up to a 93.7MPH average fastball (up from 90.9 and 91.7 the previous two years; all numbers according to FanGraphs pitch type; http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=3201&position=P#pitchtype) and his K rate rose to 9.44K/9 with an ERA of 3.62 and a great 2.62 FIP, among the best in all of baseball, and his control also was significantly better in 2010 as his walk rate dropped from 4.28BB/9 to 2.72 BB/9.  He garnered CY award votes and was one of the best pitchers in the major leagues.  Still, that innings jump was huge.  Liriano essentially pitched twice as many innings in 2010 as he did in 2009.  Again, not a prudent jump in innings by the Twins and those monitoring such things.  

Fast forward to 2011; Liriano comes into spring training with some nagging injuries, and has another bad year.  His velocity and control take a turn for the worse in a big way.  He manages to pitch 134.1 innings in between DL stints, but does so with a K/9 that dropped to 7.50, the worst of his career, an ERA of 5.09, and a FIP of 4.54.  His walk rate also rose up to 5.02, a career high.  And his velocity took a major dip.  His average fastball was clocked at 91.8MPH, down roughly 2 MPH from 2010, and almost identical to 2009.  His DL stints coupled with a statement from Rick Anderson this week that "Liriano complained of a sore shoulder all year" (http://www.1500espn.com/shows/tompelissero) point once again to a dead arm in 2011.  Velocity/control drop.  DL stints.  And the statements of both Liriano and Rick Anderson.  His defense certainly didn't do him any favors in 2011, but it was a poor year for Liriano.

So what does it all mean?  In my mind, this:

Francisco Liriano has never ceased having great ability as a pitcher.  He simply has been grossly mishandled by the Minnesota Twins over his career so far, chiefly in innings.  

2008-First year back from Tommy John; 199 innings.  Effective, but lots of innings.  Good return campaign.

2009-Dead arm all year, limited to 136 innings after such a jump the year before.

2010-Return, stellar year.  But 250 innings, 114 more than he threw in 2009.  

2011-Dead arm all year, limited to 134 innings after such a jump the year before.

Talk about a roller coaster.  Call me crazy, but I would not have any guy I named "The Franchise" pitch almost 200 innings in his first year back from Tommy John surgery.  I would not then, after a "dead arm" year the next year, DOUBLE his innings in a calendar year.  A normal trajectory in my mind would have been: 2008-130 innings, 2009-165 innings, 2010/11-200 innings/full workload.  Some damage has already been done, but the Twins should attempt to learn from their past mistakes here.  Liriano threw 134 innings in 2011.  It's not inconceivable--in fact it's probable, in my mind--that Liriano can be effective in 2012.  But he should be eased in to a normal transition.  That would seem to be a limit of around 170 innings in 2012.  This may mean skipping starts periodically throughout the year, or just giving him less innings at a time.  Taking him out in a blowout win in the 6th inning, etc.  Then an uptick to around 200 innings and a "full workload" in 2013.  And that leads me to my next point:

We may have an in-house #1 already.  Liriano certainly has the ability, and we have him under team control already.  For one more year currently.  Sticking with Liriano does not cost us 3-4 top prospects, as any other potential ace candidate would.  It only costs us money. If I am the Twins I am looking at the innings and mishandling outlined above and I am gambling that the best is yet to come.  This will be Liriano's age 28 season, meaning his prime should be the next 4 seasons.  He has not had a "major" injury since 2006, 5 years ago, he's a scarce commodity as a power lefty with great stuff, and the Twins have already invested heavily in him.  I would approach him with a 4 year/$40 million deal this offseason and gamble that you can get him right with properly managed inning restrictions.  If Liriano has another year like 2010, which again, is not unlikely, he will hit the open market in Free Agency and demand a contract in the range of 4 years/$64 million at least.  If he has another year like 2011, which shouldn't happen if his innings are managed effectively, he'd still demand a contract on the open market in the range of 3 years/$20 million at least.  There is decent risk/reward to the signings on both Liriano's side and the Twins.  

It could be that Liriano and his agent are fully aware of the above innings roller coaster and don't want anything more to do with the Twins and their medical staff after this season, but the Twins should at least look at finding out.  Especially when only Scott Baker remains under contract for 2013 of the established/effective starters on the Twins' staff.  It could be that we may just have our #1 in the fold already.  With so many other needs and a glaring, desperate need for a frontline starter, Liriano is worth the risk.

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Twins have ruined Lirianos arm beyond repair

Last year was horrible, even his no-no was extremely ugly, I dont have any faith in him what so ever, he has been Kazmir’d

by RaysOfHope on Nov 18, 2011 2:09 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

Twins fault?

Please explain. I see it more as a player that didn’t take care of himself in the offseason. He’s has to be a professional and get himself ready for the season.

by fishhead711 on Nov 18, 2011 2:12 PM EST up reply actions  

You don't "get ready"...

to throw that much of a jump in innings. That’s the point.

by DJSkillz on Nov 18, 2011 2:13 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

But......

Not being prepared for spring training is Liriano’s problem. As I recall, he was shut down during spring training because he didn’t keep his arm in-shape during the offseason. These are grown men that need to act like professionals and be prepared. No one can prepare for a huge jump in innings, but he didn’t make it through ST. It’s on Liriano.

by fishhead711 on Nov 18, 2011 10:18 PM EST up reply actions  

he was "shut down"...

for all of a few days. that had zero effect.

by DJSkillz on Nov 18, 2011 10:57 PM EST up reply actions  

fishead was on to something though, Liriano didn't do the proper re-hab this offeseason and Rick Anderson

knew it from day 1 going into last year, he didnt’ flex the tendon, and didn’t do what he was supposed to do, instructed by Twins physicians to help re-habb it to the point of it being a non-issue, but the fact was in was an issue, if Liriano had Nathan’s offeason work ethic he would have been our ace more so than Baker last year.

I have little confidence in Liriano going forward, as a chance at what he was in 2010 or even 2008. maybe a decent #3 starter but thats about it.

Yoenis Cespedes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW9ge8l3jY8
^ the bottom video ^
MLB Move Type "B" compensation to the post second round, pre third round area.

by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Nov 22, 2011 7:53 PM EST up reply actions  

2011 was very similar to 2009 in a lot of ways...

a dead arm explains a lot of things, like the drop in velocity and control. He rebounded in 2010 with a fresh offseason. He can, and probably will IMO, do it again in 2012.

by DJSkillz on Nov 18, 2011 2:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Meh

At a certain point, some of the responsibility has to be on Liriano. It’s amazing how many excuses he’s been given – Twins should have shut him down (despite his agent accusing the Twins of keeping him in the minors for service time consideration), he shouldn’t have gone to winter ball (the Twins sent him at the end of 09 b/c in part b/c he threw so very few innings. He was done with winter ball by Jan 10, it’s a bit of stretch to count that as part of his 2010 season), Twins want him to pitch to contact, horrible defense, no Spanish speaking coaches (actually, that should be fixed) etc.

He could have a bounce back season and, if he does, I suspect we’ll hear a lot of posts like this blaming the Twins for making him pitch in 2008 and going to winter ball in 2009 as the reasons for his poor 2011 (and not crediting it for his suburb 2010). And if he has another 2011 season, I suspect we’ll see more posts like those of RaysOfHope, blaming the Twins for that, too.

by Gunnarthor on Nov 18, 2011 2:17 PM EST reply actions  

they're not "excuses"...

they’re legitimate facts. Generally it’s presumed that pitcher should never have an increase of more than 30 innings/year. Liriano has had that twice, in HUGE excess, and both times it’s been followed by a dead arm, factually backed up by a drops in velocity and control, by DL stints, and by statements from both the player and his pitching coach. You cannot just ignore all of that evidence.

by DJSkillz on Nov 18, 2011 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

and by the way...

as I made clear above; I have no problem with him going to winter ball this year or before the 2010 season. But the Twins should have been much more diligent in managing his innings during the year either with skipped starts or by reducing his innings in games.

by DJSkillz on Nov 18, 2011 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Those aren't really facts

What you are referring to is the Verducci effect, which is the idea that pitchers under 25 shouldn’t see more than a 30 inning jump from season to season. First, the Verducci effect wouldn’t apply since Liriano was already 25 in 09. Second, the Veducci effect doesn’t count winter ball innings. Third, the Verducci effect has been debunked by lots of people looking into it.

So, you’ve basically misunderstood a concept, added winterball innings to pile up innings, and used a quote by Anderson which had nothing to do about Liriano’s total innings – and could just as well been caused by faulty mechanics or poor conditioning, both of which have been issues for Liriano as well – to make a claim that the Twins handled him poorly.

by Gunnarthor on Nov 18, 2011 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

That's not to say

I don’t think fatigue isn’t a real issue – esp down the stretch in 2010. But at some point it has to be the players responsibility to be ready for the season. Liriano came into ST last year and wasn’t ready. He didn’t do his offseason workout as he was instructed and never really got going. His mechanics were shuddy, although his stuff was still awesome. I believe he had one of the highest whiff rates in baseball again. So, there is room for hope but I think it has more to do with Liriano than the Twins treatment of him.

by Gunnarthor on Nov 18, 2011 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

his strikeout rate and velocity both dropped...

as for his workouts or coming into camp in shape, that’s fairly ridiculous. there was ONE report that said that, and then another report less than a week later said he was “caught up”. that doesn’t even make any sense. if he was THAT out of shape or that lazy in workouts during the offseason, a few days would not make up for that. more likely, the first report was inaccurate or slanderous.

by DJSkillz on Nov 18, 2011 2:58 PM EST up reply actions  

no, you're wrong...

it’s not just Verducci who believes that; many scouts/experts do. and it also has not been debunked. and of course winter ball innings count in some form.

either way, liriano had never pitched even 157 innings in a season before 2008, so it was ridiculous to pitch him 199 innings in his first stint back from TJ. and it was ridiculous again to jump him up in innings from 136 to 250 in one calendar year as well.

if anything the crap mantra of “poor conditioning” and “lazy workouts” is the part without fact.

by DJSkillz on Nov 18, 2011 2:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Here's just one

http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2010/02/verducci_effect.php
“The Verducci Effect, like most everything else I tested, is not significant in predicting future injuries. Injuries are hard enough to predict as is, and there’s certainly no straightforward rule of thumb. A high workload does coincide with a trip to the DL the following year, though the causative effect may be that pitchers who throw a lot of pitches have more opportunities to get injured, rather than the pitches placing more stress on their arms.”

As to poor conditioning, this wasn’t the first year the Twins complained about his workouts and coming to camp out of shape. In any event, I hope he has a great season for us.

by Gunnarthor on Nov 18, 2011 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

couple of things...

1) difference of opinion does not mean “debunked”. “Jump in innings is bad” is not a fact, and I never stated it is. Injuries/K rate/velocity/control decline/statements from player and pitching coach following huge innings jumps ARE facts. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to put the two together.

by DJSkillz on Nov 18, 2011 3:09 PM EST up reply actions  

2) wouldn't be the first time...

that the Twins erroneously put out reports denigrating one of their own.
Lohse/Garza are “problems”
Ramos is not good defensively
Morales is not good defensively
Slowey is too smart (haha)

etc.

by DJSkillz on Nov 18, 2011 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

and how could I forget...

“Bartlett doesn’t take charge”

by DJSkillz on Nov 18, 2011 3:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think Liriano is a true Ace™, but he definitely has upside.

I’m not convinced that Liriano will ever be as dominant as he was in 2006 again. He’s not going to turn into the next Johan Santana. Still, he can be a makeshift ace or a solid #2. I am with you on the overuse contributing to down 2009 and 2011 seasons, but I also think he isn’t going to be super consistent year-to-year.

My gut instinct would expect him to have a big bounce-back 2012, and that his furure seasons shouldn’t be as bad as 2009 or 2011. That’s why I think that if Terry Ryan is shrewd, he’ll try to sign Liriano to a long-term deal this winter. -Because he might hit the jackpot and have a domant pitcher locked up for several seasons of affordability. If Liriano has a dominant 2012 and then becomes a FA, he’s going to command a big contract.

by Flip27 on Nov 18, 2011 2:18 PM EST reply actions  

exactly my point, and the point of my post above...

if Liriano has a season like like 2010 (highly likely IMO) then he’s going to get HUGE money on the open market as probably the best pitcher available next offseason (I’d guess all of Greinke/Cain/Hamels will be traded and/or extended during this season or before it). And the Twins won’t be able to afford the ace they’ve got.

If they sign him now, at his low point, both Liriano and the Twins take some risk but gain reward. It’s a worthy gamble vs. shelling out top prospects for a guy like Sanchez/Ubaldo/Volquez, etc. that is no better than Liriano and with no less risk.

by DJSkillz on Nov 18, 2011 2:21 PM EST up reply actions  

My question on an extension

is why would Liriano do it now? He wanted a 4/40ish deal last year and was rebuffed. Now, only a season away, wouldn’t his agent want him to wait it out unless they were concerned he wouldn’t bounce back?

by Gunnarthor on Nov 18, 2011 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

he may not, and if i were his agent i'd advise him not to and would want him away from the Twins' medical staff...

but then again, having gone through TJ once, and coming off a poor year, he might.

my point is it’s worth the shot. there’s decent risk for both sides. not dissimilar from the Jose Bautista extension that was inked last offseason.

by DJSkillz on Nov 18, 2011 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree with this

If you look at the careers of post TJ pitchers, Liriano’s pattern is fairly typical. The affects of too many innings are often felt the next year. This is not conjecture. Rob Neyer built his career on documenting this phenomenon for Bill James.

If he follows the Neyer pattern, he should have a bounce back year this year, especially if he can come to camp in better shape. Two years ago, he pitched too much in winter ball, came to camp ready to start the year, pitched lights out in April, and gradually wore down the rest of the year. So last offseason, he overcompensated and came to camp out of shape. Hopefully this year he finds a happy medium.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Nov 18, 2011 2:38 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

I swear I read

That it’s only planned for him to pitch a half season in winter ball. Hopefully that is the correct prescription.

by archie2227 on Nov 18, 2011 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

LINK?

for those of us out of state?

I don't know, but I've been told it's hard to run with the weight of gold,
'the other hand, I've heard it said, it's just as hard with the weight of lead.

by montanatwinsfan on Nov 18, 2011 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Well thought out article

While I do think Liriano needs to take some responsibility, I agree that his innings-pitched have been mismanaged.

I also wonder if the whole “musical catchers” game last year hurt his consistency. He seemed to have a hard time trusting what his catcher told him to throw when it was just Joe. We had 4 differrent catchers last season. Yes, he should be beyond all that, but some pitchers have their guys they feel more comfortable with…after all, Pavano wanted Butera.

The other teams could make trouble for us if they win. — Yogi Berra

by Twnzfan on Nov 18, 2011 2:55 PM EST reply actions  

thanks...

I don’t mean to say he doesn’t deserve some portion of responsibility. Just that innings do matter a great deal, and I think it’s fairly clear his innings jumps have directly led to periods of injury and/or dead-arm periods, which obviously has effected his effectiveness as well (velocity/control).

by DJSkillz on Nov 18, 2011 3:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Catchers

That’s kinda interesting. Generally, I would think it doesn’t matter all that much but maybe Rivera, who can speak Spanish, was better at calming him down in high stress times? I don’t know but I think one of the Twins blogs suggested that (without any way of measuring it).

by Gunnarthor on Nov 18, 2011 3:09 PM EST up reply actions  

4 years 40 million

Seems steep because of his history.
If possible i would like the twins to alter Blackburn’s contract with white-out and earse the “blackburn” and add Liriano.

by clutterheart on Nov 18, 2011 7:19 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

Not really steep at all...

it’s a bargain compared to what he’d command on the open market next year with a good year.

And, as mentioned, he reportedly turned down 4/$40M last offseason. Let’s see if he’ll go for it now after a poor year last year. Offers good risk/reward for both sides.

by DJSkillz on Nov 18, 2011 10:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Meh

Do what you always did, and you’ll always get what you always got.

Liriano will not carry the staff. He’s best when he’s pushed. That, more than anything, is the real lesson of his history, as I see it. Expect him to be the Ace, and shame on you. Bring in someone who can push him to earn his check, and you may have a great 1-2 punch.

But never, ever, expect Liriano to be a de facto #1.

by Shawn Gillogly on Nov 18, 2011 8:11 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

I didn't 'ignore' the evidence.

I just think you’re interpreting it in a typically over-optimistic fashion.

His best stretches have always been when there was either 1) A bona-fide ace, or 2) another hot pitcher. He does not carry a staff, never has.

Assuming someone will change into a player he’s never been before is neither logical nor practical. Will he be better than last year? Probably. Will that be an ‘ace.’ Not even close. Solid #2, sure. Match zeros with CC and Verlander? Nope. We danced this dance before, twice.

by Shawn Gillogly on Nov 20, 2011 6:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I sorta agree with this

It’d be great if he could repeat 2010 but expecting it might be a bit naive.

by Gunnarthor on Nov 19, 2011 5:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree

with everybody. . . The emotions that Frankie draws from fans seems almost all negative, the guys on Frankie’s side base it all on “Hope”. I like the post DJ, it gives a perspective that has something more than hope and disappointment.
The taking care of himself issue seems to be something the Twins should be monitoring closely. Maybe Liriano deserves some of the blame, but I don’t see how you fail to monitor an important (or ANY) asset that success depends upon. It is an extension of the lousy job the medical staff did.

by Theo77 on Nov 18, 2011 9:29 PM EST reply actions  

First of all, the twins need a new training staff. This was outlined in another post… Everyone kept going down. There was something wrong with their strength program. They need to fire everyone in that department.

I don’t know much about how this works: If there are lots of pitching injuries, is it all on the trainers for not preventing injuries or is it misuse or both? I’m sure a better training staff could help. I’m also sure that a new philosophy would help.

by JMP on Nov 19, 2011 1:14 AM EST reply actions  

Polarizing

There’s no doubt that Liriano is polarizing. Let’s say he duplicates 2010 in 2012. I still wonder what would happen with him on the open market in that scenario. Sure he’ll get a deal but what? Now that will be an interesting argument. It’s kinda like Edwin Jackson this year. He’s up and down, who knows what his actual worth is.

Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?

by halfchest on Nov 19, 2011 1:43 AM EST reply actions  

Well, if Liriano has a year like 2010, that would be 3 CY-caliber years in his career, in the span of 6 total years...

I’d think he’d get a very big contract as likely the best SP on the entire market. Think about what CJ Wilson is going to get this year; is he really better than Liriano? Highly doubtful. Think about what Silva/de la Rosa/Pavano have gotten in the last few years. Liriano would be in line for a HUGE payday, which is why I want to sign him now.

by DJSkillz on Nov 19, 2011 5:11 PM EST up reply actions  

You're greatly overvaluing Liriano

CJ Wilson has been a starter for two years, both were better than Liriano’s best season. In Wilson’s two years as a starter he has managed 204 ip, 134 ERA+, 4.4 WAR and 223ip, 152 ERA+, 5.0 WAR. Liriano’s best two years were 121 ip, 208 ERA+, 4.0 WAR and 191.2ip, 112 ERA+, 3.8 WAR. (fWAR for the two are 4.6, 5.9 for Wilson and 4.1, 6.0 for Liriano).

He might be the starter with the most stuff on the market and I suspect someone will pay him big for it. Depending on what pitchers are on the market, he could be the #1 (esp with a strong 2012). But it’s a bit premature to say he’s had a cy young season, let alone three. He has certainly had stretches, some months long – if he finished 2006 he very well could have won they cy young – but he as yet to have that break out season.

by Gunnarthor on Nov 19, 2011 5:39 PM EST up reply actions  

couple things...

1) WAR and ERA are both fairly flawed. Look at Liriano’s FIP’s in those years too.
2) I didn’t say Cy Young seasons; I said CY-caliber, and they were. Liriano was one of the very best pitchers in baseball in both 2006 and in 2010. Unless you want to use a dinosaur stat like ERA.
3) I specifically said if his 2012 is similar to 2010, THAT would make 3.

You’re definition of a good season and mine are far different apparently. 2010 was a truly great season from him. Again, if you look beyond a dinosaur stat like simply ERA. Our defense has been atrocious for Liriano, for example, compared to the defense CJ Wilson has had behind him over the last couple of years. Liriano will be highly, highly sought after in FA next year if he has a year even remotely resembling his 2010 season.

by DJSkillz on Nov 19, 2011 7:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I get your point

but FIP has several issues as well. The main one, in our conversation, is it’s simply a rate stat. Wilson’s extra 100+ ip aren’t taken into account. But yes, Liriano’s FIP in those two years were superior to Wilson’s FIP in his two years. Stats that try and take into account overall contributions (WAR/WPA) favor Wilson by a pretty sizable margin.

To say that Liriano was one of the best pitchers in either 2006 or 2010 requires one to ignore deficiencies in those seasons. He only managed 121 innings in 06. That’s not Cy Caliber. His 2010 season was very good and he did get one 3rd place Cy Young vote. I hope he has many more of them. However, he was aided by a nice home park and a strong defense behind him. Unless you’re absolutely sold on FIP alone, I’m not sure he was one of the top 10 starters in baseball that year. But if he does have another season like that this year, he’ll be one of the top starters on the market (depending on how else might be available).

by Gunnarthor on Nov 19, 2011 11:09 PM EST up reply actions  

strong defense?

what team were you watching?

by DJSkillz on Nov 20, 2011 1:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Twins

Finished 2010 in the top 5 in most defensive categories, including UZR, and their middle infield defense, behind Hardy and Hudson, finished 1st and 2nd respectively. Statistics that try and give credit between fielders and pitchers gave Liriano more help from his fielders than Wilson got from his.

by Gunnarthor on Nov 20, 2011 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

those are very flawed...

anyone who’s watched this team the last couple of years knows our defense has been relatively atrocious. Hardy/Hudson were very good up the middle, but our OF defense was quite bad.

by DJSkillz on Nov 20, 2011 5:45 PM EST up reply actions  

You really can't accept being wrong, can you?

First, WAR, ERA+, WPA aren’t reliable. Now, UZR. Only thing reliable is the eye test?

by Gunnarthor on Nov 20, 2011 6:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Infield defense was very good in 2010, outfield defense was very bad

In 2011, they were both bad. But I do not think Liriano benefited from good infield defense more than most of his rotation mates in 2010. Larry is a GB pitcher. With Valencia, Hardy and Hudson having very good years in terms of UZR, that was bound to help him, or so you would think. But, if you thought that, you would be wrong.

His FIP outperformed his ERA by a full point in 2010, meaning he was not well served by his defense overall. This is confirmed by his BABIP of .331. The difference between his FIP and ERA shrunk to a half a point in 2011, as his BABIP went down to .290—more normal for a GB pitcher. Some of this is luck, but the numbers do not bear out the proposition that he was helped by his defense in 2010. The main difference between the years are seen in his FIP stats. Ks were down, BBs and HRs were up. Those are all consistent with a dead arm.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Nov 20, 2011 7:50 PM EST up reply actions  

zactly...

well said, CMath.

Hell, there was a game this year where he had something like 7 earned runs and NONE of them should have been earned if you watched the game. I’ll have to find that one.

by DJSkillz on Nov 20, 2011 8:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Royals

Third start of season. Discussion thread was epic. Liriano defenders argued that every hit should have been an out, Liriano detractors detractors were slightly less forgiving. Truth was probably in the middle.

by Gunnarthor on Nov 20, 2011 11:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Again

You’re putting a lot of faith in FIP overall. Esp when other stats suggest that Liriano’s 2010 wasn’t as good as either Wilson’s 2010 or 2011.

by Gunnarthor on Nov 20, 2011 11:00 PM EST up reply actions  

By any measure, Liriano's 2010 was the best year for a Twins starter since Santana

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Nov 20, 2011 11:44 PM EST up reply actions  

yep...

and Gunnarthor, no, that wasn’t it. Though that game was bad too. This was one of Liriano’s last starts of the year.

It was the Angels’ game on August 4th. The worst defensive game by a team that I have ever seen. DP ball after DP ball, weak hit grounders, etc. And yet all of Liriano’s 7 runs allowed were “earned”. At most 1 of those runs was on him.

by DJSkillz on Nov 20, 2011 11:54 PM EST up reply actions  

True

But no one is saying it wasn’t. Hope he has another one this year.

by Gunnarthor on Nov 20, 2011 11:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Me too

I don’t know how valuable it is to compare him to CJ, though. CJ is an ace free agent who should cost a lot more than Liriano for several more years. I wouldn’t be surprised if someone comes up with 5 years/$75 M for him.

The point is Liriano should be close to the pitcher we saw in 2010 for a lot less than any “ace” on the market. Our best bet is to give him that opportunity. I think Ryan will.

All Smith could talk about was trading him and Span, the two best values on our team.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Nov 21, 2011 11:13 AM EST up reply actions  

In fairness to Smith

It’s unlikely that he put Liriano on the market (otherwise teams other than Yankees would have been discussed) and it was clear that the Twins didn’t like the offer for Span. Not sure either of those really qualify as Smith talking about trading him and Span (and Cuddy at the deadline was the best value that Smith should have moved. Alas).

by Gunnarthor on Nov 21, 2011 7:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I just picked the last two players he was shopping

Fortunately, he turned down the offers. But he openly shopped them, diminishing the offers significantly. When a team shops a cheap ace, you start to think “what’s wrong with him?”

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Nov 21, 2011 9:32 PM EST up reply actions  

exactly...

that (devaluing assets through the press) and not understanding positional/scarcity value were the two biggest problems with Smith, IMO.

Very good CF for a relief pitcher (Span/Storen)
Very good C prospect for a relief pitcher (Ramos/Capps)
Very good SS for 2 crappy relief pitchers (Hardy)

That’s just terrible valuing of assets.

by DJSkillz on Nov 21, 2011 10:06 PM EST up reply actions  

yup...

get this staff a solid defense and you’ll have vastly different results.

liriano’s not a “head case” or such nonsense that a lot of the casual fans seem to say.

by DJSkillz on Nov 22, 2011 10:58 PM EST up reply actions  

No, SOME stats that take the IP into don't favor Wilson.

fWAR does that. As you mentioned parenthetically, they grade out similarly in the two seasons compared. bWAR is terrible for pitchers.

by tobynotjason on Nov 22, 2011 3:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe

Stats like WAR (either type), FIP, VORP, Win Shares, DIPS, WPA, UZR etc are all, to different extents, scattershot. A few years ago, DIPS was the rage. Same with VORP and win shares. Some of those stats have been modified and some are just not used anymore. Defensive stats are tough b/c 1) defense is tough to measure and 2) tough to value. I tend to prefer bWAR to fWAR b/c bWAR more often than not passes the smell test for me.

Part of the problem with using “advanced stats” is that we don’t always acknowledge how flawed they are (I’m to blame on this as well. I like using WAR and WPA to make quick easy points but their limitations should be pointed out). Conventional stats like IP (undervalued in my opinion) and ERA+ have flaws as well but I think we sometimes undersell them for advanced stats.

In any event, nice series of comments.

by Gunnarthor on Nov 22, 2011 4:22 PM EST up reply actions  

bWAR is just run average weighted by innings with a modification for the teams “average” defense, which kills a guy like Liriano in 2010, who had rejokeulous BABIPs on flyballs. fWAR is just FIP by inning, which measures what he definitely controls.

The main difference in position players’ WAR is Total Zone (inferential) v. UZR (observational). Lots of people “can’t believe” this and that player’s UZR for whatever year, ergo fWAR fails their “smell test”. To me, it’s more like “this is what the guy really did, it’s just not necessarily representative of his true skill.” KIND OF like ERA or even the sort of weighted RA bref uses to compute pitching WAR, actually, except that with UZR the fieder REALLY DID what he was measured to do whereas a pitcher merely was pitching when whatever REALLY HAPPENED after he threw the ball really happened. Lots of which isn’t his fault. Which is why I like UZR but don’t like fWAR for pitchers.

by tobynotjason on Nov 22, 2011 5:16 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree with your basic point, but...

fWAR is based on FIP and IP, period, and is a great measure of actual production that looks only at events a pitcher controls. (Yes, bWAR [and ERA] is flawed.)

by tobynotjason on Nov 22, 2011 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Pitchers have control over more than FIP gives them credit

John Tudor threw a lot of pitches likely to become groundballs because he had Ozzie Smith behind him. FIP doesn’t give him any credit for that strategy. Mark Buehrle is terrific at holding runners, pickoffs and overall defense. WAR based solely on FIP doesn’t give him any credit for that. (Yes, fWAR [and FIP] is flawed)

What we have is two flawed, immature measures that also happen to be better than any other measures we have.

by DJL44 on Nov 22, 2011 4:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh totally.

I should have put a “relatively” in there, since bWAR was all I was speaking to. If I’m looking shorthand for talent eval., I look at xFIP and tERA and SIERA. And to really have a good handle on some guys you have to watch: I didn’t know that about Tudor (I saw him pitch some, but I was like 12, so…), but it’s a fair point, although regardless of marginal hits v. magnificent defense the primary value of a groundball (i.e. it’s not a home run) is still gonna be captured. There was just a good “WTF Mark Buehrle” thing on fangraphs…

by tobynotjason on Nov 22, 2011 5:23 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

And as far as Frankie being “polarizing” I think the issue is more because people keep expecting him to produce a season like he pitched for half a year in 06. But they’re not willing to reproduce the circumstances that ‘allowed’ him to succeed in that fashion.

That is, having a reliable #1 in front of him to take the load off and push him to excel. There’ no shame in being a very good #2 pitcher. But don’t call a #2 an ace. They aren’t the same thing.

by Shawn Gillogly on Nov 20, 2011 6:55 PM EST up reply actions  

the whole "pressure off" thing is a bit absurd IMO...

I don’t think that has any effect at all. Liriano is what he is when he’s not pushed to extremes by Twins management; that is a very good pitcher; one of the better ones in baseball. Like 2006 and 2010, I expect we’ll see that Liriano again in 2012.

by DJSkillz on Nov 20, 2011 8:16 PM EST up reply actions  

I just wonder how much the bad years will drag him down

The inconsistency is scary if I’m a GM looking at Liriano even with a solid 2012 campaign. I’m sure if he repeast 2010 he’ll get paid some solid money but I don’t see a GM putting his career on the line for Liriano. I don’t think he’ll even see AJ Burneet/John Lackey money personally.

Is he likely better than those guys? yah, probably but he’s so feast or famine it’s hard to know which is the real pither. I love Liriano I kinda wish the Twins would offer him an ok extension now after a bad year and bank on a return. Let’s say the Twins signed him to a 4 year 30M deal right now. That’s a solid risk/reward deal for both sides. If Liriano is awesome this year then dang that’s money in the bank for the Twins. If he sucks, then it’s money in the bank for Liriano. This is a risk that I’d like the Twins to take. That said the Twins have access to medical info that we do not and also know Liriano personally and know what kind of player he is. If they think he’s just had a tough start to his career due to injuries then take the risk. If they thinks he’s a headcase then leave it be.

Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?

by halfchest on Nov 20, 2011 2:16 AM EST up reply actions  

4/$30M is much too low...

Liriano will make close to that in annual salary this year in arbitration. 4/$40M is much more reasonable IMO.

by DJSkillz on Nov 20, 2011 1:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Seems like every year somebody pulls out the stats that say Liriano is a great pitcher

and every year I am disappointed. While I would love Liriano to be an “Ace” I highly doubt he will return to that sort of form. I hope he proves me wrong, but as ol’ GWB said “Fool me once and can’t get fooled again…”

Remember, remember the seventh of November.

by Go Twins! on Nov 19, 2011 7:06 PM EST reply actions  

Ok so I'm not really repling to what you said but I have a question about your signature...

isn’t the quote “Remember, remember the fifth of November”?

"I don't really give a f*** and my excuse is that I'm young, and I'm only getting older somebody shoulda told ya" ~Drake (I'm On One)

by twinsgirl197 on Nov 20, 2011 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

(this is assuming you are quoting V for Vendetta)

"I don't really give a f*** and my excuse is that I'm young, and I'm only getting older somebody shoulda told ya" ~Drake (I'm On One)

by twinsgirl197 on Nov 20, 2011 3:12 PM EST up reply actions  

feel like I should have remembered that.

But I got part of the reference… I’m making progress!

"I don't really give a f*** and my excuse is that I'm young, and I'm only getting older somebody shoulda told ya" ~Drake (I'm On One)

by twinsgirl197 on Nov 20, 2011 6:08 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Good Job!

Progress!

Remember, remember the seventh of November.

by Go Twins! on Nov 20, 2011 6:15 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

i like the sig, well done

Yoenis Cespedes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW9ge8l3jY8
^ the bottom video ^
MLB Move Type "B" compensation to the post second round, pre third round area.

by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Nov 22, 2011 7:56 PM EST up reply actions  

You got part of the reference...

V for Vendetta, etc.

But that movie was referencing an actual event from 1605.

by spanspanspan on Nov 22, 2011 2:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I know that!

I saw the movie not that long ago, it was great!

"I don't really give a f*** and my excuse is that I'm young, and I'm only getting older somebody shoulda told ya" ~Drake (I'm On One)

by twinsgirl197 on Nov 22, 2011 7:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Disappointed it's not a reference to Lenin.

"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
#OccupyTwinkieTown

by less cowbell, more 'neau on Nov 21, 2011 8:51 AM EST up reply actions  

Its a reverence to the day the Tacoma Narrows bridge collapsed

And Bill Smith. I viewed them both as shaky at best and not fit for their job.

Remember, remember the seventh of November.

by Go Twins! on Nov 21, 2011 10:18 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Just ruminating.

I’ll believe Liriano can be a #1 when I see it, but it’ll be interesting to keep track of his effectiveness v. innings pitched.

Of course, we could also see random suckitude again. Who knows.

by MNPundit on Nov 21, 2011 2:57 PM EST reply actions  

I think you missed the point of this...

the point is that the “sucktitude” is NOT random. It is a direct reflection of his ridiculous innings counts by the Twins’ medical/pitching staff.

by DJSkillz on Nov 21, 2011 5:55 PM EST up reply actions  

No, that's the whole point.

Is the suckitude random, or isn’t it?

If you’re right, we might be able to track with effectiveness v. innings pitched. If you’re wrong, it’s random suckitude next year and that means it was probably random suckitude this year too.

by MNPundit on Nov 22, 2011 11:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Carroll is no substitute for LNP.

"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
#OccupyTwinkieTown

by less cowbell, more 'neau on Nov 21, 2011 11:33 PM EST up reply actions   3 recs

Shut the F*ck up Donnie

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Nov 21, 2011 11:41 PM EST up reply actions  

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