Matt Capps, Or His Mirror and a Draft Pick
Last night Phil Mackey posted some solid information on our Minnesota Twins who, apart from making a "mad effort" to sign Michael Cuddyer, are also fond of bringing back Matt Capps. To be fair to the Twins Capps isn't as bad as he often looked in 2011, and if brought back at a fraction of his salary would probably be an effective reliever.
But I feel like we should be injecting some perspective into this conversation.
Sidebar: In Mackey's article, Ron Gardenhire doesn't accept injuries as an excuse to lose 99 games. That's great. Of course he then goes on to use injuries as a crutch for Capps' performance, instead praising Capps for being a "class act" and giving the team what he could in spite of his health. This should have no bearing on whether or not we think the hefty right-hander should be back in 2012, but it's interesting to note.
Objectively, it's hard to look at Capps' rough 2011 as a benchmark for performance going forward. Injuries or not it was an off year. Still, it's worth comparing his numbers to league averages over the last few seasons. Take a look.
| Split | ERA | BB/9 | K/9 | BAA | WHIP |
| Capps ('09-'11) | 4.01 | 2.2 | 6.5 | .282 | 1.35 |
| 2011 | 3.69 | 3.6 | 7.9 | .243 | 1.32 |
| 2010 | 3.94 | 3.7 | 7.9 | .250 | 1.36 |
| 2009 | 4.08 | 4.0 | 7.6 | .252 | 1.39 |
Taking Capps' three year composite against the averages for all MLB relief pitchers over the past three seasons, it doesn't take advanced metrics to tell what amounts to be a very average tale. There's value in an average reliever, certainly. Particularly when a quick glance through available arms for the '12 bullpen reveals a very short list of reliable, effective arms. It means that Matt wouldn't be a bad choice in terms of the MLB roster.
It also means that the production the Twins could expect from Capps is relatively easy to replicate. If Minnesota is willing to pay Capps (as an example) $2.5 to $3 million, they have the alternative of paying a similar relief pitcher that money while also collecting a draft pick.
While Capps is no longer a Type A free agent, the new CBA means that the Twins don't need to offer him arbitration in order to collect compensation when he'd inevitably sign elsewhere. That decision would net the organization a draft pick between the first and second rounds of the draft this June.
With this in mind, it's difficult to see the logic in trying to retain Capps. He's an average relief pitcher, which is fine, but without paying additional money the Twins could have the same production and a top 60 draft pick. So why keep the sometimes closer in the fold?
Speculating, we could hazard a guess that Minnesota has tried to speak to other free agent relief pitchers, and have found very little interest. Or perhaps I am drastically underestimating the market for non-closer bullpen free agents. More likely, I suspect the Twins are interested in keeping Capps around because they know they need a few arms, and he's one that's familiar.
And that would be beyond frustrating. Change is inevitable on a roster, and I can't repeat often enough that this front office has to make some very difficult decisions this winter for the good of the team's future. Some of those difficult decisions won't even be in terms of personnel, but rather philosophy. The philosophy of paying a free agent to return simply because he's familiar and is a model teammate isn't good enough. Those are luxuries. They're positives, certainly. But for a team like the Twins who are facing an uncertain future, moves need to be shrewd and they all need to be made with the understanding that the decisions made today can add or subtract to what happens five years down the line.
This is one of those times, one of those decisions. The reliever market has a number of bullpen arms who can be just as effective as Capps for similar money, and by letting Capps walk the Twins would garner a valuable draft pick in the process.
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Agreed on all fronts
I understand that the Twins value character, and if a draft pick weren’t on the line, that’d be one thing. But forgoing a draft pick because Matt Capps is a nice guy who works hard is foolish. That’s a short-sighted decision that short changes what’s become a weakened farm system over the previous years — at least at the upper levels.
The Twins need to be looking at this as if Capps were a Type A free agent from another organization under the previous CBA rules. Would you forfeit a draft pick (albeit, in this hypothetical example, a lower one than their first rounder) to sign Capps based on his performance? Absolutely not.
If the club is hesitant to sign a free agent closer for 3-4 years, that’s understandable. But there are options on the market with experience who will cost two years or less and allow preservation of the draft pick while delivering a likely superior performance.
Gardy
Clearly Matt Capps and his good attitude weren’t shy the Twins lost 99 games. Obviously it was Kevin Slowey’s fault. What a bad apple that guy is, what with his books, and words and all.
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all."
~ Earl Weaver
"In God we trust. All others must provide evidence."
~ Billy Beane
Slowey lacks grit, doesn't hustle, and doesn't battle his tail off either.
Plus he likes weird music, WTF?
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
#OccupyTwinkieTown
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Dec 1, 2011 9:12 AM EST up reply actions
I don't see why there's even a question given the draft-pick compensation to let him go.
LaVelle posted an article saying that the Twins thought Capps had back problems this year and…wait for it…this was a reason that they thought they should resign Capps.
Wasn't that something like
An umpire approached La Velle and mentioned that it looked like Capps was pitching with a bad back. It’s been a few days since I read the article, though.
Strawman
Jesse, you say: “In Mackey’s article, Ron Gardenhire doesn’t accept injuries as an excuse to lose 99 games. That’s great. Of course he then goes on to use injuries as a crutch for Capps’ performance…”
I really don’t think you can make a direct comparison between a look at the failings of the organization and a look at the results of one player. Is it a “crutch” to say “Well, Justin Morneau didn’t hit 30 HRs this year because of his concussion”? Or “Michael Cuddyer’s 2008 season showed him to be worthless despite his breaking a bone in his hand”?
Especially when both you and Mackey point to objective data that support what Gardy’s talking about.
Now I want to be clear – I’m not going to do cartwheels if we resign Capps. But let’s keep the analysis on target.
There's nothing strawman about it.
It was just an observation. I found it odd that in the same conversation he’d make allowances in once instance but not in the other.
But, like I said, that shouldn’t matter in the analysis of whether the Twins should bring Capps back or not.
I think the difference is that if a player is injured and can’t perform on the field, it’s out of his control and he has no other way to be productive for the team. On the other hand if the front office’s personnel plans are undercut by player injuries, they can address that by either planning ahead and having the necessary depth, or by making mid-season acquisitions to fill holes. The Twins’ front office did neither, and the training and coaching staff didn’t seem to help the cause much either. So I think it’s somewhat fair to say that injuries can be used as an excuse for Capps sucking last year, but not for the team’s 99 loss season as a whole.
That being said, I whole-heartedly join the chorus in saying that forfeiting a high pick to re-sign Capps would be a TERRIBLE move.
by MplsDefector on Dec 1, 2011 10:50 AM EST up reply actions
Absolutely there's a difference.
And I think you hit the nail on the head in that part of the issue is that Capps more or less had to pitch unless he was physically unable to do so – the bullpen was so beat up and had a real dearth of options because the front office didn’t plan for circumstances involving injuries.
Agreed
Injuries are not the reason why we lost 99 games. They are part of the reason. If that was true, how do you explain our 2-4 start where we were a model of health headed into the final game of a three game set with the Yankees and had nobody on the DL. True you could say that the Twins would be a much better team with Player A on the field instead of Player B, but if Player A can’t play due to injury, Player B would have to step up and perform. At the end of the day, this team lost 99 games due to performance issues on the field and this includes not being able to solve pitchers such as Justin Verlander.
I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew
Champagne SuperTolbert Saves the day!!!
Nobody "solved" Justin Verlander
That’s why he was the MVP, not a sudoku.
by ColossusOfRhode on Dec 1, 2011 9:15 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Any stretch of 6 games
In baseball doesn’t tell you much. The season is too long and the difference between good and bad teams is too small.
Why oh why would they bring Crapps back.
This organization really puzzles me most of the time, and yet, I am still here. Maybe I’m the idiot.
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy!!!
I think they're hoping to get a bargain
But I wouldn’t criticize them for deals that are talked about and not made. Maybe their “trying” to sign him in order to pump up demand so some other team signs him.
Also, I wouldn’t listen to Gardy. Gardy is the main reason we’re in this mess, imho. He’s all about signing or acquiring veterans to help NOW and to hell with the kids. I think one of the “philosophical” differences the organization had with Smith was that he let Gardy have too strong a voice on these things, leading to Smith using prospects as chips to acquire aging, expensive veterans. It not only depleted the farm system, it led to a lot of payroll that limited what he could do. He was on the verge of trying to trade Span, Valencia and Liriano for more veterans that fit into Gardy’s mold when they fired him.
Ryan’s history is to have patience with the kids and let them develop. Sign guys if it makes sense. Trade them at the deadline for more kids if it doesn’t work out. And recognize the fundamental truth that veterans tend to play worse as they age and are not worth the money after age 32. I’m sure Gardy is pushing hard for Cuddyer, as he pushed for Punto and Redmond—his dugout cheerleaders. They made his job easier in the sense that they were player coaches. They helped him with the job he hates the most—developing kids. But Ryan’s in charge now. Either Gardy accepts that part of his job or Ryan will find another manager.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
by cmathewson on Dec 1, 2011 10:16 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Did Jessy S hack your SBN account?
The “kids” played all of 2011 and we came in last place in the AL Central. Plus if Gardy has such a strong voice, why is LNP a Cardinal now?
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
#OccupyTwinkieTown
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Dec 1, 2011 10:42 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This has been well documented
I’m not talking about Rene Tosoni and Ben Revere and Drew Butera. I’m talking about guys like Cuddyer, who took four years to establish himself under Gardy. Or Kubel (3), or Bartlett (3), or Casilla (?)…. He’s bad at developing kids. And he shows almost zero patience for rookie mistakes. Also, his preference for veteran “ball players” is well known. This can’t be news to you.
As to last year, the paradigm case is the Capps trade. Gardy asked for a closer in 2010 because Rauch flamed out and the bullpen was in disarray. (He never considered trying Crain, but whatever.) Smith sent our top prospect at a premium position and a position of need for Capps. This tied our hands in 2011 with a big contract. So we could not afford to retain the only major league shortstop we had in the system.
I do not recall Ryan ever sending our top prospect to another team to fill a short-term need. I do recall him building whole teams by trading veterans for prospects. This also can’t be news to you.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
by cmathewson on Dec 1, 2011 11:32 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well, if we have another 90-loss season, then, yeah
I for one would welcome a manager who embraced the philosophy of developing from within.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
by cmathewson on Dec 1, 2011 12:16 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah if we have another 90 loss season I guess
But I’ve never heard anyone before say Gardy was all-around bad at developing players. I mean, Mauer? Morneau? Span? Kubel?
"It happened in the moment, and it happened." - Carlos Gomez
he didn't develop any of those guys...
those guys were all fine on their own, especially Mauer/Morneau/Kubel.
Ah
So if players came up and did well under Gardy, it was just because they were talented and Gardy had nothing to do with it.
But if players came up and didn’t do as well under Gardy, it had nothing to do with a dearth of talent, but rather, was all Gardy’s fault?
If this really is the case, what is it based on?
"It happened in the moment, and it happened." - Carlos Gomez
by myjah on Dec 1, 2011 12:44 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Based on
Grass is always greener philosophy.
by Gunnarthor on Dec 1, 2011 12:47 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I take it that Gardy
will only stick with a rookie if he’s doing a great job like M & M and Kuble. Span bet out Gomes in spring training, but Gardy started Gomes. Span has to play his way into the line-up. Also, it seem to show more with the MI’s.
by b1 on Dec 1, 2011 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
He'd have to be brain dead not to develop Mauer and Morneau
Kubel is marginal. He was the most talented hitter of the three, but he still had to fight for playing time against guys like White and Sierra when he was just getting going. Span also had to fight for playing time and got moved around for the first two years. Morneau had to sit quite a bit until they traded Mint. Mauer was the only one of the four who didn’t have to fight. Still, Gardy brought Corky Miller north as a fourth catcher (!) in his first full season and sat him on the bench for six of the first 12 games.
Gardy doesn’t trust young guys, even very talented young guys. They have to force their way into the line-up while he plays journeymen.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
by cmathewson on Dec 1, 2011 12:42 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
huh?
Most talents hitter of the three? Which three?
Kubel, Mauer and Morneau
Have you seen Kubel’s numbers before he tore up his knee? His 2004 was the best year of any minor leaguer in Twins history. Look it up.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
That's one measurment
but comparing minor league stats isn’t a great way to compare prospects. BA highest ranking for Kubel (after that 04 campaign) was 17, Mauer was ranked #1 (twice, he was awesome) and Morneau peaked at #14. Both were better prospects. And while you did limit it to ‘talented hitters,’ I still think both Mauer and certainly Morneau who was a 1b prospect, were both considered better hitters. Scouts did love Kubel’s speed and thought that could be a real part of his game at the next level. Stupid injury.
okay
Minor league stats (overall for the sake of simplicity):
Kubel: .320/.386/.499/.844
Mauer: .330/.406/.427/.833
Morneau: .311/.379/.528/.907
All of those include some rehab stints that should be thrown out, but BR includes them in the overall minors numbers and I’m not doing any math for this.
But Morneau looks like the clear best to me on this measure, with the other two being about the same.
Ok, but
Gardy isn’t the one who signed White and Sierra. Gardy isn’t the one who decided when to trade Mientkiewicz. You kind of talk about this as if Gardy is the GM.
"It happened in the moment, and it happened." - Carlos Gomez
He didn't have to play White or Sierra
White was supposed to be the right handed DH. Gardy hit him often against righties, sitting Kubel. Sierra was supposed to be the left-handed PH. Gardy used him often as a DH, sitting Kubel.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
yep...
Gardy’s PT decisions have generally hindered prospect growth, not helped it.
Cuddy at 3b is probably the most glaring/maddening example, to me.
Cuddy
Gardy was an idiot for constantly degrading him in the press and moving him from the position way too quickly when he was improving greatly over there defensively.
And that is not alone; there’s Bartlett “not taking charge” so he could play Juan freaking Castro, Harris outright winning a ST job over Punto only to be told to go back to the bench, etc. Gardy runs a double-standard machine with his vets/young guys, and always has. Including to the press, which may be the worst part.
by DJSkillz on Dec 1, 2011 2:12 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
+1
They said Cuddy was a better hitter in right. I suppose so. But was that because of the stress of the position or the stress of the manager? When the manager is benching you three games a week, it’s kind of hard to get into a rhythm in the batters’ box. They put him in right everyday and boom, he started hitting. Who knew? Only every prospect rater on the planet.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Yes, but you can learn from it
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
it's not hingsight
this has been posted for a couple of years now.
by b1 on Dec 1, 2011 5:53 PM EST up reply actions
exactly...
and most of us have been pissed about those things happening AT THE TIME THEY HAPPENED!
Bartlett/Cuddy both being the case, in spades.
Meh
The Gardy can’t develop kids thing is over blown. He was constantly managing a contending team so it’s not like he had the luxury of putting in a young prospect and letting him get 500 PA season. And players take time to develop, not just Twins players. Look at guys like Colby Rasmus, Logan Morrison, Chris Young, Carols Quentin, Alex Gordon etc. Under Gardy we’ve gotten two MVPs, 2 Cy Youngs, 9 different all stars, 6 Central titles in 10 years. He got 3 2.0+ WAR seasons out of Lohse for crying out loud. His teams have generally been pretty young. For instance his 04 team gave 33 or more starts to 25 yr olds Silva, Lohse and Santana. I think you’re giving to much weight to small things like Castro over Bartlett and ignoring his decade long approach of giving young players chances and giving him too much Machiavellian control.
I do agree that he and Smith weren’t a good fit. I think Gardy likes speed too much – I hated the piranha stuff which looks like it’s coming back.
And your second paragraph is a bit over the top. Ramos wasn’t our top prospect and his prospect stock was actually falling (BA dropped him 30+ places after the trade). The pen was in disarray and Crain was a big reason for that, an internal fix wasn’t going to fix that. The team dropped 10 games in the standings in less than a month.
Ryan never traded our prospects, even if it could have put us over the top. It was one of his more infuriating traits, if you would recall. Not saying it wasn’t the right thing to do but it really bothered a lot of people.
by Gunnarthor on Dec 1, 2011 12:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
well documented by ...
your opinion, over, and over, and over. Not by many actual facts. For the record, I think there is a kernel of truth in your assertions. I just wish you’d stop trying to turn a thoughtful, minor issue into a specious mountian of hyperbole that ignores facts inconsistent with your view.
I don't know, but I've been told it's hard to run with the weight of gold,
'the other hand, I've heard it said, it's just as hard with the weight of lead.
by montanatwinsfan on Dec 1, 2011 2:24 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
You have to admit the evidence is strong
The facts to the contrary are few and far between. All you have to do is look at playing time for guys who became cornerstone players. Very few of them played everyday in their first couple of years. Gardy inherited the team that won the first three division titles. After that, his record in using the talent from the system is spotty at best. Ryan and later Smith would sign veterans for the bench and Gardy would try to convert them into regulars, benching the young guys. Mauer is the exception that proves the rule.
And I’m not the only one who has documented this. Gleeman, Seth, the Geek, Roger, …. Why? Because he evidence is strong.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
by cmathewson on Dec 1, 2011 2:49 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Which way does that cut
That the cornerstone guys we have didn’t play every day right away? Does the fact that they are cornerstone players now mean something worked? Or does it mean, as you say, that they should have played more sooner?
It means they had talent to do it all along, but had to earn their playing time
What does it matter? Well, I for one hated watching Ruben Sierra flail away while Jason Kubel sat on the bench, or Juan Frickin’ Castro let everything in the hole get into left field while we had Jason Bartlett on the bench. If you want to win, you play your best players. You use journeymen as fill-ins to give the regulars a rest. All the best teams do this. The Twins under Gardy are one of the very few teams that don’t. It’s not just my opinion. It’s a fact.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Ruben Sierra??
He got four starts and 33 PA for the Twins. That’s the “strong evidence” that Gardy couldn’t develop Kubel? Fun fact, the 40 yr old Sierra’s OBP in 33 PA was 6 points lower than Kubel’s .279 OBP in 235 PA. Clearly, Gardy mismanged Kubel or coming back from a year away from hitting and a wrecked knee is hard.
by Gunnarthor on Dec 1, 2011 3:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You had to pick that one
Castro, White, and Cirillo were all signed as bench players and got way more playing time than anybody thought they would.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
07 team was pretty rough
Mauer missed time, Punto fell off cliff, far too much Piranhas (which is coming back). Cirillo, for example was 12th in PA but 7th in OPS. And there weren’t any young guys getting blocked. Casilla at 22 got 200 PA (w/40 OPS+) and Kubel rebounded nicely from his 06 come back year. But we didn’t really have any position players ready to come up and contribute. Think that was more on Ryan than blaming Gardy.
cmathewson: "You had to pick that one "
Classic. cmathewson BRINGS UP Ruben Sierra as evidence of his half-baked theory, in fact cites him as “evidence” as the the “facts” of his case…and then when show incontrovertable proof that his evidence is poop, says “you had to pick THAT one.”
Too funny.
by USAFChief on Dec 1, 2011 8:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Who cares
Ruben Sierra was part of the “We signed him because he beat us angle.” In game 4 of the 2004 ALDS, he blasted a game tying home run. In 2006 he was signed in late April and released in July. Here’s a summary of his 2006 season.
I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew
Champagne SuperTolbert Saves the day!!!
Also, the years he used veterans more than young guys, we lost
In 2005, 2006 and 2007, he started using the veterans who were signed as depth and only used young guys late. We won in 2006 despite getting off to a terrible start. The other two years, we never recovered.
He started winning again when Cuddyers and Kubels had earned their playing time. We can only speculate about what might have been if they had played more. But it sure would have been better than watching RonDL.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Rondell White should have played
Yeah, he hit like crap with the Twins, but he came into Minnesota as a decent player with a decent track record. White easily appeared to be the team’s best option at DH going into 2006, and it’s ridiculous to blame Gardy for playing him, at least for the first couple months of the year.
For that matter, I can’t blame Gardy for playing Tony Batista, Adam Everett, or Mike Lamb – all of them were obvious choices to start at their positions (and all but Batista looked like good acquisitions at the time). The fact that Gardy was manager when a bunch of veterans fell off cliffs is not necessarily his fault.
Heap the man with scorn for playing Castro over Bartlett, keeping Santana out of the rotation until halfway through 2003, and not giving Cuddy enough chances to become the full-time second or third baseman; I have no problem with that. But while you’re at it, don’t forget about him giving chance after chance to young guys Alexi Casilla and Luis Rivas, or trusting Joe Mauer as his opening-day catcher, or plugging Justin Morneau immediately in as the everyday first baseman after the Meintkiewicz trade, or giving Lew Ford as much playing time as he did.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
by BeefMaster on Dec 1, 2011 4:17 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
That's cherry picking
So, the 02-04 teams don’t count. The 05-07 teams were Gardy’s fault. I’ll assume the 2010 team was impossible to screw up?
Let’s see, per B-R, the 2005 Twins gave the most PA to (in order):
Stewart (31), Ford (28), Jones (30), Mauer (22), Morneau (24), Cuddy (already getting his playing time 26), Punto (27), Hunter (29), LeCroy (29), Castro (33), Bartlett (25). Pitching wise, Gardy gave all but 15 starts (13 of those to Liriano and Baker) to Santana, Radke, Silva, Lohse and Mays and his four pitchers in his pen got to 70 innings – Nathan, Rincon (26), Crain (23) and Guerrier (26).
06 Twins it was Morneau, Castillo, Cuddy, Hunter, Mauer, Punto, Bartlett, White, Ford, Kubel. Pitching wise, things had changed and Gardy gave 16 or more starts to Liriano (22), Baker and Boof (both 24). Pen stayed same
07 Twins Morneau, Hunter, Cuddy, Bartlett, Punto, Mauer, Kubel, Castillo, Tyner, Redmond. Pitching, with Radke and Liriano gone, got 145 starts from Santana, Baker, Boof, Garza, Slowey and Silva and 26 yr old Neshek became pen force.
It’s hard to see a lot of support for an idea that young players weren’t getting their chances here. Kubel was out in 05, struggled a lot in 06 and got 7th most PA in 07. Doesn’t seem horrible. Over these three years you see Gardy relying on a ton of young players and less on vets. Santana and Silva were the only two constant starters in that three year run (and Silva was up and down). Young pitchers were the backbone of the pen and the reinforcement of the starters.
by Gunnarthor on Dec 1, 2011 4:17 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Wait, wait...
So Gardy told Smith to trade Ramos for Capps now? That is news to me.
Others pointed out Mauer and Morneau below.
They made his job easier in the sense that they were player coaches.But the veterans help mentor the “kids” all the time. Puckett>Hunter>Span. Do you think that’s unique to the Twins under Gardy?
I’m not sure your where belief comes from that Ryan, who worked with Gardy from 2002-2007, is suddenly going to fire him this year. This is also news to me. Is this from the Bob Costas School of Logic and Other Stuff?
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
#OccupyTwinkieTown
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Dec 1, 2011 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
Less Cowbell
Kirby Puckett retired in 1996.
That said, I am all for veterans mentoring younger players, but Gardy has had an habit of sitting young players when they should be playing. Translation, I wouldn’t be mad to see Tim Wakefield signed by the Twins to pitch, but would be upset if Liam Hendriks is on the team but is pitching every 10 days and gets skipped a few starts for no good reason.
I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew
Champagne SuperTolbert Saves the day!!!
Gardy's fingerprints...
are ALL OVER the Hardy and Ramos trades. All over them.
Pics or it didn't happen.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
#OccupyTwinkieTown
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Dec 2, 2011 12:08 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I realize I'm probably outside the norm
in that I don’t hate Matt Capps and wouldn’t mind if he came back (for a huge pay cut)
Yes, he frustrated the hell out of us on a pretty much constant basis in 2011 but he is a competent reliever (which we desperately need) and he’s coming off a terrible year. The alternative to keeping him is to “let him go and find someone else”…but that generic “someone else” will come with his own issues and we have no idea what those are. At least with Capps we know what we’re going to get. We just need to sign him for much, much, much, much, MUCH less money than we paid him in ’11.
The beard abides.
by Jason Kubel's Beard on Dec 1, 2011 10:26 AM EST reply actions
The only difference
is that NOT signing Capps nets us the draft pick, assuming he gets signed by someone. Even if the new person doesn’t work out, we still have the pick. Re-signing Capps may be better in the short term, but signing someone else is probably better in the long term.
Let's keep the pick in perspective
Admittedly, the Twins have had huge success with picks – and I want them to collect as many as they can – but the odds that the 40ish pick in next years (supposedly) weak draft will pan out might not be all that great. If we could get Capps for a couple years, his age 28, 29 and 30 seasons, wouldn’t that (likely) be better than the pick? Not sure if the Twins are looking at a multi-year deal for Capps or if he even wants one.
It depends on the pitcher the Twins get to replace Capps.
His production can be replicated, but age and years signed is another variable.
Takashi Saito...
for instance, figures to cost about the same as Capps. I’d rather sign a guy like that (or Dotel, etc.) and collect the pick.
Let BOTH Capps and Cuddy walk and get 3 picks. Kubel, a good case can be made for retaining, given his age. He’s in the prime of his career, is a professional hitter, and will probably end up being a Type A guy by the end of a 2-3 year deal.
This is pretty much where I'm at.
Again – bringing Cuddyer back doesn’t bother me as much, provided the years and dollars aren’t prohibitive.
to me it's just a matter of replaceable cost...
I think we can easily replace Cuddy’s value for less cost. And even if it’s SIMILAR cost dollars-wise, it makes sense to let him go, given the value of the 2 draft picks.
Like I said, I think a good case can be made for Kubel, because unlike Cuddy he’ll be in the prime of his career over the next 3 years, and will likely be a Type A FA at the end of that 3-year span anyway, drawing 2 top picks himself, or serving as a very tradeable asset over that time. Tough to believe that if Kubel has a decent year this year (and he should) that he couldn’t fetch you at least the value of a supplemental pick via trade. I’d look to retain him (he’s our 3rd best hitter) and let Cuddy and Capps walk.
With whom?
Can we so easily replace Cuddy. Willingham? Who else?
I like WIllingham as a cheaper, shorter alternative
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Willingham...
Beltran, Pena, Kelly Johnson, Coco Crisp, Damon, Andruw Jones, JD Drew, Casey Kotchman….
Plenty of guys that can replace him as a platoon bat DH/1b, which is what he should be at this point. And for less money and less years. PLUS netting us 2 picks. That’s the other part of the equation to me; do we really want to commit to Cuddyer for 3 years, when he’s going to be on the decline in all 3 years, and we will have capable, cheap options ready to play (Hicks/Arcia/Morales/Benson) within that time frame? I don’t. Taking two top 40 picks for him (he’s among the top Type A guys this year) just makes it that much more of a no-brainer.
And Cuddy's "versatility", again...
is highly overrated. He shouldn’t play 3b at this point, shouldn’t play 2b at this point, should almost never play RF at this point, and also is below average at 1b. A guy that “can” play 1b/RF/DH, but none of them all that well, is not exactly “versatile” in my book.
You're not verstile if you're marginal at every position
Having every kind of glove does not count as versatility.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
I should add...
Derrek Lee, Brad Hawpe, Scott Hairston, Connor Jackson, Ryan Ludwick, Rick Ankiel, Yoenis Cespedes, Vladimir Guerrero.
I’d really consider making plays for either Aramis Ramirez or Yoenis Cespedes.
Aramis depends on how his market develops (I wouldn’t pay anything over 3/$30M for him, or so) and also what Valencia’s trade market is. But it’s worth considering if his market remains light and Valencia can be packaged for pitching or another bat.
Cespedes to me is a value play. If he gets somewhere around $40M over 6 years as rumored, that’s probably good value for what he is likely to provide, IMO. And with his ability to play CF, it allows you to do something else with Revere/Benson/Hicks/Span/Morales in trade scenarios.
Ludwick is a possibility
But the rest of the guys here either can’t play in the outfield or can’t match Cuddy’s bat or both.
But I don’t know really anything about Cespedes.
Cuddy can't really play the OF either...
that’s the point.
There's a difference between
You’re opinion and what his role will be.
If he’s resigned, he will play primarily in right field. And that’s the role than needs to be filled, thus listing a lot of guys who will not play in the outfield isn’t exactly useful.
but he shouldn't...
he provides negative value as an OF’er.
But he will
Plus, I always thought RF was where you stuck marginal defensive players.
"Baseball, it is said, is only a game. True. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole in Arizona." ~George F. Will
One of the rare
truisms that makes it from 10 y.o. to the bigs.
Not too negative
Players “should” play the outfield if their value is net positive as an outfielder bat + glove. Also, be careful with defensive stats in MN. RF is a short porch which always messes up the UZR stats.
I'd only touch one of those guys with a ten foot pole
And that’s Beltran. And I’d still be reluctant. He’s two years older and likely more expensive.
And, of course, Pena, Johnson and Kotchman can’t play RF, which is what needs replacing.
I am all for more Japanese players
Can’t let these google translate skills go to waste.
"It happened in the moment, and it happened." - Carlos Gomez
I'm not dead-set against it
But, signing Matt Capps would be counter-productive.
If we weren’t getting a pick for him I’d say “go ahead, re-sign him.” However I am not turning said pick into a sacred cow that is vital for the organization to get.
"Baseball, it is said, is only a game. True. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole in Arizona." ~George F. Will
I am sure Capps is begging to come back to Minnesota
Where he was booed incessantly by most Twins fans… no chance.
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