After Willingham, how much do the Twins have left to spend?
by Bobomojo on Dec 14, 2011 9:01 AM EST
in By the Numbers
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PrintAssuming the Twins finalize the rumored 3-year, $21 million deal with Josh Willingham, the front office will turn towards improving the team’s pitching staff, which compiled the second-highest ERA in the Majors last season.
But how much money will they have to spend? The Twins appear to be trimming payroll this season, after spending a franchise-record $118 million in 2011. Some reports have the team shooting for a $100 million payroll this season, though some guess it may get closer to $110 million when all is said and done.
Let’s do our best to figure out where we currently stand. Below I’ve laid out a chart that estimates our payroll commitments for 2012 based on our current projected roster. I’ve included rough estimates for arbitration eligible players (stolen directly from this page at MLB Trade Rumors), and assigned a generic $500,000 salary to each player that has yet to hit arbitration. Because these are just guesses and estimates, please keep in mind that the totals come with a reasonable margin of error.
The big chart, after the jump:
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Starting Nine |
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Mauer |
$23.00 |
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Morneau |
$15.00 |
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Casilla |
$1.30 |
Arb. Est. |
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Carroll |
$2.75 |
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Valencia |
$0.50 |
Pre-arb est. |
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Span |
$3.00 |
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Revere |
$0.50 |
Pre-arb est. |
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Willingham |
$7.00 |
Best guess |
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Doumit |
$3.00 |
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|
|
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Subtotal |
$56.05 |
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Rotation |
||
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|
|
|
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Pavano |
$8.50 |
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Baker |
$6.50 |
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Liriano |
$5.20 |
Arb. Est. |
|
Blackburn |
$4.75 |
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Duensing |
$0.50 |
Pre-arb est. |
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|
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Subtotal |
$25.45 |
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Bullpen |
||
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Capps |
$4.50 |
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Perkins |
$1.50 |
Arb. Est. |
|
XXXXX |
$0.50 |
Pre-arb est. |
|
XXXXX |
$0.50 |
Pre-arb est. |
|
XXXXX |
$0.50 |
Pre-arb est. |
|
XXXXX |
$0.50 |
Pre-arb est. |
|
XXXXX |
$0.50 |
Pre-arb est. |
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Subtotal |
$8.50 |
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Bench |
||
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Nishioka |
$3.00 |
|
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Plouffe/Tosoni |
$0.50 |
Pre-arb est. |
|
Hughes |
$0.50 |
Pre-arb est. |
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Butera |
$0.50 |
Pre-arb est. |
|
|
|
|
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Subtotal |
$4.50 |
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TOTAL |
$94.50 |
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The first thing you’ll notice is I’ve made no attempt to guess which of their team’s organizational guys would fill the bullpen if the season started today. Since any of those options would be paid (roughly) the same wage, it didn’t seem important to assign names for this exercise. And of course Duensing may very well be pitching out of the bullpen next season, but, again, that doesn’t really impact the totals we’re working with here.
There, at the bottom, is the grand (estimated) total: $94.5 million. If the team is truly committed to a $100 million payroll, that leaves with only about $5 million to spend the rest of the off-season. If the purse strings open a little wider, we may have somewhere closer to $10 or $15 million to play with. And remember, if those arbitration estimates are low, the amount available in the Twins budget may actually be slightly smaller.
So, Twins fans, how should we invest $5 or $10 million? Will that be enough to make this team a contender again?
223 comments
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Cool.
It looks like you could buy the entire Twins team for a C-note and still buy some McChicken McNuggets afterwards.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
#OccupyTwinkieTown
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Dec 14, 2011 9:08 AM EST reply actions
as long as you don't buy them in Bismarck
"Nobody wants to hear me rap." - Joe Mauer
"The more toppings a man has on his pizza, I believe the more manly he is." - Herman Cain
by what_would_gil_thorp_do on Dec 14, 2011 10:48 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Maybe
But I think the Polhads aren’t selling right now.
I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew
I would like to see Dallas vs the Giants on Thanksgiving, Make it happen NFL!
Remaining moves
Kubel 3/15
Harden 4+incentives
Zumaya 2+option year
Payroll=$105
How does that sound?
By the way, can Guttierez start the year in the BP?
by AM. on Dec 14, 2011 9:20 AM EST via mobile reply actions
i'm not sure i'd touch zumaya at this point...
i just can’t see him staying healthy. i’d take a gamble on wuertz instead.
we still would probably need another starter on top of that because i don’t think any of us want to see duensing in the rotation at any point this year.
i like the gamble...
i just don’t think any gamble’s worth it in zumaya’s case. i just can’t see him pitching more than 10-15 innings this year before getting hurt. his arm is basically hanging on by a thread at this point.
Zumaya was horribly misused in Detroit
Four years in a row, Leyland kept him out there for four innings and at least 70 pitches, twice against the Twins. In every case, he developed arm problems within a week.
Properly used, I’m confident we can keep him healthy.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
you think?
I don’t know; his medicals have just sounded incredibly scary to me. and i don’t exactly have much faith in our medical staff/gardy to manage health effectively.
not exactly a sterling record on that front. :)
I just remember the two games vividly
He was out there, obviously exhausted with fresh arms in the bullpen. In one case, he broke a bone in his elbow throwing pitch number 70. Maximum effort guys like him need one inning and 30 pitches at at time, max.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Well that's not true
In 20 games against MN, he pitched 29 innings total. The most he’s ever pitched in a game was 3.0ip his rookie year. He’s only twice thrown even 50 pitches in a game (although both were against the Twins in 09).
I think you need to look again
I watched the games. I know they’re in there.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
That said
It might have been 3 innings. I was so focused on the pitch count, I might have lost track of the innings. The key is not the innings, it’s the pitch count.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Go to baseball reference
you can look up the game logs pretty easy. Over 50 twice. Over 40 two other times.
Cmathewson's point still stands
That’s too much for a guy like that who has been utilized mostly in a relief role.
I’m all for taking a flyer on him a 1 year cheap deal.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
Wait, what?
cmathewson caught inventing “facts” again?
Inconceivable.
by USAFChief on Dec 14, 2011 2:38 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Glad you're paying attention
Keep up the good work as my personal fact checker.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
That looks about like a 75 win team to me
What’s the strength of that team? The offense, even assuming relative health, is pretty blah, the rotation has no depth and isn’t that good, and there is no bullpen.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 14, 2011 9:29 AM EST reply actions
Starting pitching
They also need to turn Blackburn into a $3M salaried mediocre reliever.
yup...
i’ll keep banging that drum as well.
the capps trade really f’ed us. especially when we could have had saito for $1.75M. think about that; we could have basically had THREE saitos for one matt capps, plus a draft pick. think we’d be a better team with that???
If you could somehow unload Pavano and Blackburn...
could you get Vasquez (and $1M for jets for him to go home), Harden, and one other decent guy for that money? I think you might.
I also wonder how much it would cost in a trade for Jurrjens and Prado.
The addition of Willingham
makes this roughly a .500 team. They need a good pitcher, and finding at two more quality arms for the bullpen is an absolute must.
2 arms for the rotation is a must
That slides Duensing into the pen and Blackburn onto another team.
I'm not as convinced
Willingham strikes out 15-30 more times than Cuddyer will bat 20-40 less BA points (for what its worth)
and while hitting RH pitchers a little better doesn’t do it enough to bat cleanup when thats what we desperately need.
Willingham is a .245/.340/790 type of guy
Cuddyer .285/.345/800 type of guy
Its close but in a vacuum, no picks afforded either way i’d take Cuddyer as i think we all would every time. + CUDDYER is YOUNGER Than WILLINGHAM -I still can’t believe that!? they are essentially the same age.
If we bring back Kubel i like the move (and our chances) a lot more, w/o Kubel this move of no Cuddyer and value add of Willingham doesn’t do enough to say we’re a .500 team yet for me.
Yoenis Cespedes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW9ge8l3jY8
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Dec 14, 2011 3:29 PM EST up reply actions
Plus Willingham is JUST coming of a Terribly high strikout season in Oakland he struck out a TON.
Yoenis Cespedes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW9ge8l3jY8
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Dec 14, 2011 3:29 PM EST up reply actions
Strikeouts don't bother me.
They avoid double plays and mean you’re making the pitcher throw a few more over the plate.
Why do we desperately need a cleanup guy?
Are you assuming Morneau can’t go?
Also, you’ve shaved 17 points off Willingham’s career BA, 21 points off his OBP, and 46 points off his OPS.
exactly...
the “type of guys” completely ignores both players’ actual numbers over the last 4-5 years. willingham is likely to be the better offensive player over the next couple of seasons. or at least basically identical.
and they saved at least $5M or so and gained 2 top 40 (or top 80) picks.
Plus
WIllingham has less of a platoon split which is a nice addition. He still hits lefties very well but isn’t as hapless against righties which is most pitchers in the league anyhow.
In a vacuum I probably slightly prefer Willingham . . slightly. With the picks and price difference it’s a no brainer to me.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
Considering recent performance,
you’re under-rating Willingham.
Last 3 years
Cuddyer: .276/.341/.465
Willingham: .257/.360/.479
So while Cuddyer may be your .800 OPS type guy, Willingham is closer to your .840 type guy.
In reality, the only thing Cuddyer does better offensively is 1) hit LHP, and 2) batting average.
They will...
I have confidence that they’ll get a few more quality players before everything is said and done.
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let's make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." -Harmon Killebrew
I have the current 25 man roster at $96,490,000.
…the differences are that I estimate all the minimum players at an average of $520,000. Where they end up is anyone’s guess. Other differences are that I have Liriano at $5.8mm, Casilla at $1.5mm and I believe Capps is $4,750,000 this year.
They have to get at least one starter and a better right handed set-up man. If they are somewhere between $94.5 and $96.5mm, they have $4-6mm available. We both have a player in that slot, thus, they have between $5-7mm available for a starter and set-up man. Should be able to get two solid pitchers, who with a bit of luck will have a good season.
Pretty close
Yeah, I wasn’t sure what to use as the estimate for pre-arb players – not a big difference anyways. And you may very well be correct in your arb. estimates – I used the Trade Rumors guesses based solely on my own ignorance of estimating arbitration awards.
Re: Capps. His base salary this season is $4.5 million, and he has a $250K buyout for next season (or the Twins would be on the hook for $6 million). I guess the question is whether you count that buyout towards the 2012 or 2013 season – I chose 2013.
But small differences. I’m glad we came to (roughly) the same conclusion.
Capps' deal is for $4.5M this year with a $250K buyout in 2013 (sure to be exercised after he sucks again)...
still way too much. I agree Liriano/Casilla arb figures seem low.
I still think we end up around $113M or so if Dave St. Peter is to be believed. I’d:
Trade Blackburn for a reliever from an NL club; shave off around $1.75M from payroll. Either we pick up some of his salary for a cheap guy or we get a guy who makes around $3M or so. That leaves us with around $18.25M to work with and fills one hole, though it creates one in the rotation; (I’d argue Blackburn IS a hole right now anyway).
Sign: Kubel to a 2-year deal worth $14M
Sign: Michael Wuertz-1 year deal worth $1M Bullpen complete with Capps/Perkins/new guy from Blackburn trade/Duensing/Wuertz/Swarzak/1 other in-house guy
Sign: Rich Harden-1 year/$2.5M (he only made $1.5M last year)
Trade: Ben Revere for Martin Prado (arb estimate of $5M or so) I know this is adding some salary, but Prado’s just a perfect fit; he provides a good bat at any of 2b/SS/3b and essentially makes our bench much stronger (moving Carroll or Casilla there).
We’d have just $2.5M left to play with to preferably find another starter, but I’d look to trade for a guy that could help for a year or two. Or even look to backload a deal for next season.
Another option would be to still unload Pavano to someone (Rockies?) and use that money to find two starters.
I like most of these moves.
I don’t think we’ll trade Blackburn and he ends up in the 5th spot. But adding Harden would push Duensing to the pen.
One other guy that I like in place of Prado is Macier Izturis from the Angels. Detroit has been linked to be interested in him. I like him batting 2nd and starting at 2B. He could fill in at 3B and SS as well. Not sure what we have that might interest the Angels since they seem to have depth everywhere now.
Kubel @ $7M / yr and lose a draft pick?
No thanks.
by That'sWhatSheSaid on Dec 14, 2011 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
In Kubel's case...
I’d do it. He’s likely to be more productive than Willingham or Cuddy over the next 3 years IMO.
I don't think he'll cost that much
3 years/$18 mil is my guess. The draft pick is worth a couple of mil, though. So he’s close to Willingham for the Twins.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
by cmathewson on Dec 14, 2011 1:36 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
They don't need to lock up another outfielder long term
They need a stopgap until Benson is ready. Find a vet on a 1 year deal. Spend the money on pitching.
by DJL44 on Dec 14, 2011 1:54 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
maybe so...
i think it depends on if you think kubel can play 1b (I think he can; but i’d like to hear how he faired on grounders last year when they had him taking them behind the scenes). if you think he can, then he’d also be some excellent insurance for morneau over the next couple of years; remember, morneau is only signed through 2013 currently anyway.
Kubel should never step on the field
other than the batter’s box
by That'sWhatSheSaid on Dec 14, 2011 1:58 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Why does 1B matter for Kubel?
Isn’t that covered by Mauer/Doumit/Willingham/Parmalee?
true...
Parmelee’s a good point.
Doumit’s only under contract for 1 year and I’d like to see Mauer play 3b when he’s in the field rather than 1b.
Why 3B?
Just because he’s not the typical power-hitting 1B? Or because you think his fielding ability and arm are good enough that they would be wasted at 1B? Or something else?
by spanspanspan on Dec 14, 2011 2:11 PM EST up reply actions
the latter...
not to mention that it’s a larger need.
and i think 3b makes the most sense for him as an eventual landing place in 3-5 years when he’s done catching.
huh?
In a world where Morneau can’t play first base, isn’t first base a larger need than Valencia at third?
not when you have those other options..
and the greater point is, as mentioned numerous times, it’s a waste of mauer’s talent.
Yeah, I don't get that
His main talent is in his bat. After that, he’s a good catcher.
Once you move him from catcher, you’re mostly just keeping his bat in the game.
Maybe he could be good at third. Before Valencia’s rookie year I figured that Mauer should probably be working on moving over there. But if Valencia can perform more like his rookie year and less like last year, I think we have third locked down and I want Mauer’s bat wherever there is a spot he can play.
i guess i just don't see valencia as ever being great...
solid maybe, ya, but nothing special. i don’t think he’s a longterm solution there (ie 3-5 years from now, when mauer should be making a permanent switch). and i also think the writing is on the wall that he’s not a “twins guy”; aka not one of gardy’s boys. i’ll be semi-shocked if valencia is even on this team in 2013. i don’t agree with it, but that’s what i think given that he’s constantly being thrown under the bus by this coaching staff.
i think mauer can be a good defensive 3b with his athleticism, even potentially elite there, so his defensive value is a waste at 1b IMO. and i know some will bring up sano, but i still think sano ends up as a 1b longterm.
to sum up...
mauer to 3b is a bit more about long term planning than the short term now.
Every position can't be great
Not unless you’ve got $200 million to spend, anyway. I’ll wait for Sano. Until then, Danny is a perfectly solid guy to fill in as a 7th-place hitter and a 2 WAR player overall.
Mauer will catch as long as he wants to, which should be a few more years. When he’s done catching, he’ll move to first base, where his soft hands can catch throws from Sano and Rosario.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
we'll see...
again, i just don’t see sano sticking at 3b. i think he’ll end up at 1b by the time he’s in the majors.
and it’s not that i don’t like valencia; i actually do. i just think gardy doesn’t, so as we’ve seen over the last couple of years, he’ll be gone soon.
It depends on how big he gets
He certainly has the arm and agility to do it now. But if he grows like Cabrera, I agree with you. I doubt the Twins will let that happen.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
and it's a bigger longterm need still too...
I still think Sano ends up at 1b, personally.
1B is never a longterm need
There’s always someone old and/or hurt that you can shift there.
Always better for the team if you can play a more skilled position.
Heck...
The Phillies think Thome can still play 1B now and then.
by spanspanspan on Dec 14, 2011 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
I think that's a mistake
I know teams do this, but it’s dumb. We are spoiled around here with Hrbek, Mientkievicz and Morneau. First is harder than it looks. Other fans are used to pickoff throws going down the line and throwing errors on most plays in the dirt. I still have nightmares from Cuddyer dropping every other ball in the dirt over there. A good first baseman saves a lot of outs. He touches the ball 15-20 times a game, counting cut-off throws and such.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
lol
from Cuddyer dropping every other ball in the dirt over there.
you might be getting another visit from USAFChief on that one – and deservedly so.
I don't know, but I've been told it's hard to run with the weight of gold,
'the other hand, I've heard it said, it's just as hard with the weight of lead.
by montanatwinsfan on Dec 14, 2011 7:51 PM EST up reply actions
It's obviously an exaggeration
You’ve never stretched the truth here to make a point?
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
of course, that's why the "lol"
I know it was exaggeration – probably shoulda used an emoticon smiley face – but you gotta let us have some fun at your expense every now and then.
I don't know, but I've been told it's hard to run with the weight of gold,
'the other hand, I've heard it said, it's just as hard with the weight of lead.
by montanatwinsfan on Dec 15, 2011 9:50 AM EST up reply actions
I was thinking for DH
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
BRING Kubel Back
yes @ 6MM a year maybe 6,5MM for 1 year
ARE YOU KIDDING me why not? Plus after the one year is up he could UP his stock to TYPE A
Yoenis Cespedes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW9ge8l3jY8
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Dec 14, 2011 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
not likely under the new Type A format...
he’d have to be worthy of a $12M/yr contract to reach Type A under the new CBA. There no longer is Type B after this year.
But i'd still bring him back on a 1 yr deal. 3 year deal? yeah no thanks
but without him next year I don’t see our chances being much better than last year.
Granted we NEED Kubes to be healthy all yr in 2012.
Go Kubel!
Yoenis Cespedes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW9ge8l3jY8
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Dec 14, 2011 3:35 PM EST up reply actions
Jeo C. is closer to you than Bobo
He says it should be $95,740, based on the assumption that the pre-arbiration players are all at $520,000.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
at least we're done paying Mike Lamb
by DJSkillz on Dec 14, 2011 10:58 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This is confusing to me.
Twins minimum players last year didn’t make nearly that much. Of the guys who had major league contracts all year, Duensing $462,500, Valencia $437,500, Butera $429,000, Manship $419,000. Did I miss a big bump in the minimum or something?
Oh, I see I did.
Minimum now $480k, quite a nice bump for those guys.
minimum's now $520K I believe...
per the new CBA.
Arbitration
The big difference is obviously arbitration estimates. If anyone is curious, MLB Trade Rumors had a three-part series detailing their methodology for estimating arbitration awards. The series can be found by following this link. Won’t claim to know whether their methodology is sound, I just know the guy who wrote it (who evidently has a PHD in economics!) seems to know a lot more about it than I do.
Starting pitching
I’d like another bat and a quality reliever too, but first and foremost I want a starting pitcher for the front(ish) or the rotation.
I suspect we can’t afford Oswalt, and he might not be worth the money anyway, but maybe Edwin Jackson? Paul Maholm?
I'm hoping for Jackson
I don’t think they’ll waste their money on someone like Saunders. But they should kick the tires on Oswalt just to see if he’d be willing to sign an incentive-laden deal. Otherwise, Jackson seems like the best fit.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
i'd agree with that...
though I’m worried about cost. I’d personally sign Jackson to a 3 year/$30M deal (and I think it will take at least that) but I’m not sure the Twins will.
I've heard different figures for overall budget
Ryan said $100 mil, which doesn’t leave us much wiggle room. St. Peter said up to $118 million. If the latter, we can afford Jackson, Kubel and a bullpen guy.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
true, let's hope...
$22M would be enough to add all of Jackson/Kubel/Harden/Prado/Wuertz (minus Blackburn’s salary for a reliever). I’d be pretty damn happy with that team:
CF-Span, 2b-Prado, C-Mauer, 1b-Morneau, RF-Willingham, LF-Kubel, DH-Doumit, 3b-Valencia, SS-Carroll or Casilla
Bench: Plouffe, Carroll or Casilla, Tosoni (Revere gone in Prado deal), Nishioka
Staff: Liriano/Baker/Jackson/Pavano/Harden
Bullpen: Capps, Perkins, Blackburn trade guy, Duensing, Swarzak, Wuertz, in-house guy
That team would be the favorite to win the division IMO. Assuming health from Mauer/Morneau/Liriano/Baker/Span.
Also, not going to happen
Especially the Prado deal.
FA's left in Twins' wheelhouse...
1b: Branyan, Johnson, Kotchman, Lee, Pena, Cantu, Cuddyer, Posada, Scott, Hinske, Jackson, Nady, Hawpe, Guillen
MI: Rhymes, Lopez, Izturis, Renteria
3b: Kouzmanoff, Chavez, Andy Laroche
C: Castro, Kendall, Navarro, Pudge, Varitek, Snyder
OF: Cameron, Reed Johnson, Crisp, Burrell, Gomes, Ibanez, Gibbons, DeRosa, Cespedes, Scott Hairston, Ross, Damon, Thames, Jones, Ludwick, Spilsboroughs, Kubel, Beltran, Drew, Hermida, Ordonez
DH: Vlad, Matsui
RP: Aardsma, Cordero, Madson, Gonzalez, Grabow, Kuo, Marte, Mijares, Miller, Oliver, Rhodes, Romero, Sherrill, Tallet, Accardo, Ayala, Baez, Batista, Camp, Coffey, Cruz, Chad Durbin, Lidge, Linebrink, MacDougal, Mota, Moylan, Padilla, Pena, Qualls, Rodney, Sonnanstine, Wheeler, Wood, Wuertz, Zumaya, Neshek
SP: Colon, Cook, Duke, Francis, Galarraga, Garland, Harden, Iwakuma, Jackson, Kazmir, Kuroda, Maholm, Marquis, Millwood, Oswalt, Penny, Pineiro, Saunders, Vazquez, Webb, Young, Hensley
Sign them all and assign them to Rochester.
If there isn’t room, then assign some of them to New Britain and then Beloit and Fort Myers.
I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew
I would like to see Dallas vs the Giants on Thanksgiving, Make it happen NFL!
Starting Pitching is a must
If you plan to really compete this year I think Edwin Jackson is the logical choice. However, with better pitchers coming up for FA next year I’d rather see a couple stopgap guys this year. I’m all for the ex Ace Monster that other had suggested in Harden/Bedard. However now with Bedard gone I’d like to see them go after Brandon Webb/Harden/Ben Sheets.
That and I’d watch the market for Kubel and if he looks cheap enough I’d love to see him back on a 2 year deal.
Then of course some bullpen help is a must.
I can’t believe this team plans to only spend 100 million. Not because that’s a small amount but because they aren’t going to field a very good team without going beyond that. I think the Pohlads owe it to the state of Minnesota to dig into the coughers a bit after the support they’ve recieved both in ticket sales and legislative.
If they spend 110 million as wisely as they have spent most of this off season they can field a reasonably competitive team and if
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
oops
if they stink I wont blame ownership/management.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
"better pitchers coming up for FA next year"
I bet not a single one of those guys makes it to the market, assuming you’re talking about Greinke/Cain/Hamels
Hamels will be a FA, there seems to be no effort to resign him.
I’m guessing the Giants sign Cain, Greinke doesn’t even have a agent, I don’t see how can sign anything until then.
"I couldn't do that. Could you do that? Why can they do it? Who are those guys?"
my point...
is that these guys just don’t make it to FA anymore. All 3 of those guys are on another level from CJ Wilson and Edwin Jackson. They’ll all either be extended or traded and extended before then IMO.
Yah cuz Cliff Lee never made it to Free Agency . . .
oh wait. . .
That and there’s a lot more than just the three you name.
John Danks,
Jonathan Sanchez
Anibal Sanchez
Marcum
Liriano
Guthrie
McCarthy
DiceK
Not all Aces by any stretch of the imagination the point is that as of right now it looks like a much better Free Agent class than this years which was headlined by CJ, Buerhle, and Edwin. After that not a whole lot to get excited about.
This along with some guys who have expensive options like Ervin Santana, Tim Hudson, Bret Meyers, Jake Peavy, and Jorge De La Rosa thay are somewhat likely to not be picked up.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
those options...
will be picked up IMO.
we shall see; ya, there is more depth with those guys you mention, but none of those guys are an ace IMO, other than perhaps Liriano.
I still don’t think any of Cain/Hamels/Greinke are available next offseason, but we shall see.
Notice I said somewhat likely
Peavy’s option is 22 M unless he tears it up this year I can’t see them picking that up. Santana is 13 million which is a lot for him but probably has a solid chance of getting picked up. Hudson’s is 17 MI could also see them trading Santana to save money due to the CJ/Pujols signings. Hudson’s will be picked up and I shouldn’t have put that. The others are all toss ups and not amazing pitchers but could be solid upgrades over some current starters.
I agree that it’s likely those teams try to lock up Cain/Hamels/Greinke but it’s not out of the realm of possibilities that they aren’t able to or that they end up trading them in which case the Twins should be very interested. With Pavano and Liriano likely to come off the books the Twins should have the cash to sign a legit guy like one of these three.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
oops I misread
Hudson’s is 9 million and you’re right that will almost definitely be picked up.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
so will Santana's...
my point was that i think it’s foolish to bank on any of those “aces” being available next offseason.
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills
point: It looks like a better FA market next year, don’t overspend on Edwin Jackson, he’s good, but not that great.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
yes...
but neither are any of those other guys that are POTENTIALLY available next offseason, is my point. I’d take Jackson over all of those potential guys. Ditto for Liriano.
It’s a big reason why I’d like to extend Liriano now. Liriano and Jackson makes this a pretty respectable rotation, assuming a return to health for Cisco.
Player A vs. Player B.
Player A
ERA/Fip/xFip
4.50 4.63 4.42
Player B
ERA/Fip/xFip
4.46 4.34 4.38
Player A is Nick Blackburn Player B is Edwin Jackson. He’s not that great and he’s incredibly inconsistent. Is he better than Blackburn hell yes just not by the numbers. Would I like him on the Twins yes. The point is don’t over spend on him because he’s the only pretty girl left at the prom.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
Career numbers...
are extremely misleading.
Jackson is 28 and just entering his prime years, and his 2011 was:
3.79/3.55/3.73
2010? 4.47/3.86/3.71
Meanwhile Blackburn’s been one of the worst starting pitchers in baseball over the last 2 seasons.
single seasons are incredibly misleading as well
it’s called small sample size.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
which is why i posted TWO seasons
Jackson has greatly improved as a pitcher, like most do, as he’s entered his late 20’s. Meanwhile Blackburn has regressed mightily the last 2 years.
They could not be more different pitchers at this stage. And to use their career numbers and neglect that vast difference over the last 2 years is extremely misleading.
Fine, you win the internet
I’m tired of arguing over something so stupid.
I don’t think Edwin Jackson is as good as you apparently do. There’s a reason he’s played for 5 different teams in his career, numbers be damned. I’d be fine with him for the right price which I don’t think will happen due to a limited SP market. I disagree and think many of those pitchers are as good or better than Edwin and more will be available than you think. Such as I don’t see the Giants paying for 3, 20 million per year pitchers. Same for the Phillies, and I don’t know that the Brewers will be able to afford both Greinke and Marcum.
I could argue all day over who’s better and why but you’ll probably just tell me they’re going to be signed.
So I am officially pulling out of this redundant argument . . . you win the internet.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
whoa...
i thought we were allowed to civilly disagree on here. that’s all i was doing. it’s an opinion; i think you’re presenting false choices:
1) Philly/Milwaukee/SF don’t HAVE to sign their guys for that; if they can’t keep them, they can, and probably will, trade them for good prospects before they reach that point.
2) No one is advocating, again, signing Jackson for a boatload of money. No one. We’re saying he’s been a pretty darn good pitcher the last 2 years and if he can be had for $10M or so, we should seriously consider it.
3) Jackson and Blackburn are not comparable as pitchers, at all.
I can't believe I'm being drawn back into this
1) Exactly so why can’t the Twins be that team to trade for them. Ace pitchers with less than 1 year don’t draw that much in a trade. Either 2 really good prospects or 1 elite prospect, not the farm. Matt LaPorta for CC is one example and the 1B from Texas for Lee is another. If you are able to trade and sign then it’s worth it and I don’t see any reason why the Twins can’t be the team to do that if those pitchers become available.
2) I don’t think Edwin will go for that I still think he’s incredibly inconsistent/overrated. I’d be ok with him for 10 M but not elated. I think next year there will be similar and even better guys available at a better price because I believe more of these guys will be available than you do. Just a simple difference of opinion.
3). I was mostly just yanking your chain with that but did want to show he’s been pretty horrid some years. I even said yes Jackson is better if you read the whole comment. The point was Jackson’s not that great overall. He’s had a good year or two but mixed in with some pretty awful ones.
Honestly, I just got fed up with the, he’ll be signed or traded rhetoric and that it’s foolish to assume they’ll be available was unneeded and incorrect. Until a player is signed it’s kind of foolish to assume they will be extended. These pitchers are only one season away from FA they might just choose to play out their contract to get a big payday and choose who they’ll play for. In fact it’s just as likely as them getting resigned by their current team in my opinion. It’s happened before and it’ll happen again (Sabathia and Lee are just two recent examples). Johan was prepared to do the same if he hadn’t been traded. If these Aces had 2 years left then it might make sense for them to sign a long term extension as Felix and Verlander did to gain some security. As of now they are all 3 one good healthy season from signing huge contracts and getting to pick where they play.
The funniest thing is I actually liked your outline plan you posted awhile back to extend Liriano and sign Jackson. However, after seeing all the guys close to Free Agency that could likely become available via trade or FA I’d rather wait and sign a stopgap this year.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
that's where the difference of opinion comes in...
you think they’re likely; i don’t.
and as amiller just said, it’s not the same to have to trade for a guy as sign him.
i also think jackson is better than you do.
I don't really follow
I absolutely agree that the right price matters for Jackson and agree we shouldn’t overpay.
But I don’t follow why we aren’t going to be saying that same thing about Liriano and Marcum next year, which looks pretty limited to me too. And of course we need to field a team this year without next year’s free agents anyway.
What i’d like to see, assuming that we can it for an acceptable price, is signing Jackson this year and Liriano (assuming bounce back) and Marcum next year.
this is the other point...
the “likely” FA’s next year (ie not Hamels/Cain/Greinke) are not that different than the FA’s this year; CJ Wilson/Buehrle/Jackson stack up pretty damn well with guys like Danks/Marcum/Sanchez.
We better not extend Liriano
It is better for him to have the “glory of free agency” in his path than it is for him to be extended. This will lead to a contract year and we will likely get the 2006 Liriano or even a CY Young quality Johan Santana.
I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew
I would like to see Dallas vs the Giants on Thanksgiving, Make it happen NFL!
and then we'll lose him...
that’s not so good.
I'm not sure about losing him
I’m optimistic he’ll bounce back. But even if he does in a big way, his career is checkered enough that he won’t be too hard to sign at the end of the year. In the unlikely event he tanks, we won’t be saddled with a Nick Blackburn of Joe Mays situation.
Long-term deals carry a lot of risk. The risk they carry need to be outweighed by the risk you take in not signing them. I don’t think the risk of not signing him is very great right now.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
DJ is very adament about who he values and who he doesn't.
Liriano – VERY VERY VERY MUCH.
Blackburn – WORST PITCHER EVER
Slowey – Despite sucking as much as Blackburn the last three years – HAS VALUE THAT WE WASTED
Capps – SUCKS WORSE THAN CANCER
Jackson – Despite being traded 19 times the last few years – A GOOD RISK.
All in good fun.. :-)
Let loose the hogs of war!
Dogs of war..
Whatever farm animal of war, Lana...
by darren004 on Dec 14, 2011 3:04 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
sure i am...
i value talent; liriano and jackson have it; balckburn/capps don’t. slowey; jury’s out.
Slowey has talent
not at baseball, but I’m sure he has some sort of talent
by That'sWhatSheSaid on Dec 14, 2011 4:13 PM EST up reply actions
LOL
And Kubel can play First Base at a MLB level but Cuddyer can’t field at all
by That'sWhatSheSaid on Dec 14, 2011 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
who said that?...
Kubel and Cuddy are probably similar as 1b; ie both below average defensively.
DOUBLE LOL
I don't know, but I've been told it's hard to run with the weight of gold,
'the other hand, I've heard it said, it's just as hard with the weight of lead.
by montanatwinsfan on Dec 14, 2011 7:59 PM EST up reply actions
Sano's bat is ahead of his glove
Are they really going to let him sit and tear up the minors learning how to play 3B?
Yeah
He’s not a shortstop. But he can be a very good third baseman with the right development. People forget what a butcher Koskie was when he came to the Twins. Sano at 18 is ahead of Koskie at 22.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
I'd like to see him stick at 3b...
I just have no faith that the Twins will be as patient.
My thoughts on Sano and Valencia above are more just the Twins beating me down into accepting their “plan” essentially. I just don’t see either one as the longterm 3b here.
and cmath...
to me it’s about a low-risk gamble. i think there’s a great chance liriano bounces back in a huge way this year, and i think you can make a good case he’ll be the best FA pitcher on the market (better than jackson/marcum) if he does. i wouldn’t want to lose that gamble, especially for a team that is so bereft of pitchers with good stuff and has only one good starter under contract for 2013 presently. that’s my point.
people always bring up the joe mays contract, but waiting on deals has cost the twins even more over the years; hunter, mauer, santana being 3 great examples. i think we could stand to be a little more risk-taking than we are (not talking about becoming the yankees here). the rays are great examples of this; they now have the 2 best contracts in baseball with longoria and moore.
span's contract...
is a great example of this; they took a gamble, and despite health concerns, it’s paying off.
blackburn; not so much. you win some you lose some, but with high end talent at premium positions (C/CF/elite SP talent) i’d almost always gamble.
On that list
Only Marcum is really interesting.
and Liriano
the rest, ya, I agree is rather blah. I’m not high on Danks at all. and the rest are worse. I’d say options on Hudson/Santana are no-brainer pickups because they can trade them easily.
Really? What are you a Phillies fan?
I think some are missing the point. I wasn’t saying, hey look at all the Aces we could sign. I was saying don’t overspend on Edwin Jackson who is basically right in the middle of that list of pitchers which doesn’t even include the top 3 guys in Greinke, Cain, and Hamels.
Even if some of these guys re-sign which they will next years free agent class of pitchers looks much better than this ones. There will be pitchers on Jackson’s level that could likely improve the Twins rotation without having to overpay for them.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
Yeah, not sure about that
I would put Jackson on the top of that list I think, and I’m not even a huge Jackson fan.
I'd say Jackson and Marcum...
are comparable, and would top that “other” list to me. And again, I bet a lot of those “others” end up getting extended or traded and extended too. I’d almost bank on it in the cases of Marcum/Danks/Sanchez. The Brewers gave up a stud prospect for Marcum just 1 year ago; they’re not going to let him walk for nothing after this year.
what do you mean?
why does that make me a Phillies fan? I’m just being realistic; those organizations will get something for their aces, either extending them or trading them to a team that will extend them.
I hear what you’re saying; I just disagree. And while I’m not the biggest Jackson fan in the world I think I’d take him over any of those “other” guys on your list. Peavy’s done, so I don’t care about him. De La Rosa; I’d rather have Liriano or Jackson.
the response was to amiller via only Marcum is interesting.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
Okay, how does that make me a Phillies fan?
Because only Phillies fans aren’t inspired by a list of journeyman pitchers?
But DJSkillz is probably right. Jackson and Marcum are probably comparable.
and really...
both of those guys to me are really good #3’s on a good AL team, with potential to still develop into 2’s, nothing more.
if we’re going to get an ace, we’ve either got to hope Liriano gets back to 2010 form, develop one, or trade for one. those are our 3 options. they just don’t come around in FA much anymore, and even when they do, there’s no way we can afford one.
oh, one last thing...
I don’t think anyone on here is suggesting paying a ton to Edwin Jackson. But if he can be had for something like $9-10M/yr, I think that’s fair. And this team currently has 1 proven effective starter under contract for 2013; Scott Baker. That’s it.
This is the funny thin
I think we’re agreeing to a certain point. I like Edwin Jackson, I just wanted to make the point that next year’s FA’s look better at this point. Yes you could be right that many will get picked up. I’m sure some of them will but I’m speculating enough will still be there to have a better FA class or at least a better class of guys you could trade for during this season. You don’t want to hamstring yourself with 12-14 million a year for a mid rotation guy with upside.
I will fully admit I could be wrong.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
false choice though...
I don’t think a single person on here has suggested we sign Jackson for $12-14M. We’ve suggested $9-10M. If he wants $12-14M, forget it.
I think the top three next year look a lot better
But I don’t think there is any chance we will get any of them.
And we need help this year.
So it all comes down to price. I wouldn’t pay $12-14 for Jackson, but I’d pay $9-10.
because most of those guys are better starters than 3/5's of the Twins rotation
to find them “not interesting” actually made me laugh when you look at how horrid our rotation was last year.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
I'd take Liriano, Baker and Jackson...
over every “other” guy you listed.
They are spending over $100mm...
…Add the $2mm to buy out Nathan and at least another $6-8mm to sign the overall #2 pick, not counting the extra sandwich picks which will be a million each. That’s at least $10mm that the Twins will be spending, the money has to come from someplace.
Is the payroll budget necessarily connected to the draft budget?
St. Peter said up to $118 for payroll. Maybe Ryan’s $100 mil quote was taking the draft picks into account. All I have is questions at this point.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
also, remember there is a draft signing cap this year...
regardless of your # of picks. so i don’t think that should effect much.
I've alwasy thought draft/international signing budgets were seperate from major league payroll budgets.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
It all comes from the same place though
That’s what the whole “signability” issue in the draft is about. Hopefully that’s improved with the new CBA
DJSkillz
No offense but you’re obsessed with Edwin Jackson.
He’s overrated and he’s high-risk/high-reward. Look at his stats. They’re erratic. Sure, past couple of years are decent, but look holistically. He’s up and down, a lot like Liriano.
He’s too expensive and, in my opinion, isn’t a good gamble.
Besides, MN is the pitch-to-contact team. It’s annoying. We’ll never bring in a swing-and-miss FA starter. Not when we can’t even get 2 guys to eat 200+ innings, or even a rotation to pitch over 100+ innings (per man) without getting injured.
by Dan Cao on Dec 14, 2011 4:16 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
but we should WANT to get more swing and miss guys, that's the point...
again, i’m not even all that high on edwin jackson, but he’s the best option on this market, and about the best option we can hope for in FA over the next year or two IMO. and he certainly wouldn’t be the first pitcher to “figure it out” in his late 20’s. ditto for liriano, btw, considering his overuse over the last few years especially. people just forget how young edwin jackson was when he started; that shouldn’t be a knock; that should be a plus. he just turned 28 and has had 2 very good years in a row. that means that he may have “figured it out” at the age of 26. not exactly weird.
A hitch in the Willingham plan?
Latest reports are that there is now an issue coming from the Willingham camp and that he may not sign with Minnesota.
Twins FO has contacted Cuddyer’s camp to extend the deadline they gave initially for a decision.
Stay tuned for the next episode of “As Target Field Turns”
I haven't seen anything like that this morning.
"I learned something yesterday. No use in having rules if there's no punishment for breaking them. You'll be fine if you bite down on the trigger. Enjoy your breakfast."
WTH?
The Red Sox traded Jed Lowrie for a freaking reliever?
Really?
Would have LOVED to have that guy.
he was a former B+ / A-
prospect at the very least he’s younger, better and as much affordable as ALexi Casilla
Yoenis Cespedes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW9ge8l3jY8
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Dec 14, 2011 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
He was traded for someone who had 20 of the dreaded save stat last year. He was not exactly traded for some middling Alex Burnett type player.
I would prefer him to Casilla, but an equivalent trade would not really match up with us.
Let loose the hogs of war!
Dogs of war..
Whatever farm animal of war, Lana...
depends...
would you trade perkins for him? i think i would.
also, the twins supposedly had an offer of lowrie for cuddy last year at the deadline that they refused.
i’m simply saying that i think it’s bad value to get a reliever of any kind, let alone an unproven one without great stuff, in a deal for lowrie.
I am not arguing that at all. What I am saying is that if that is what the Sox were looking for, bullpen help after moving Bard to the rotation, we would not exactly be a match for them.
Let loose the hogs of war!
Dogs of war..
Whatever farm animal of war, Lana...
I am really on the fence on Perkins.
Before last year, he was awful. Then the first 80% of last year he was tremendous. Then the last 20% he was awful again. Way too up and down. Would I trade him for Lowrie myself? Probably not. While Lowrie is an upgrade over Casilla, I do not think he is that much better and given the state of our bullpen, we need the help there more than a slight upgrade at 2B.
Let loose the hogs of war!
Dogs of war..
Whatever farm animal of war, Lana...
to me it's about value...
i’d do it with casilla’s injuries, carroll’s age, and valencia’s risk. you can always patch a bullpen together.
i hear ya on the match though.
What risk is there in Valencia?
Carroll’s age isn’t a big deal as he’s 36 or 38 and still healthy and NOT INJURY PRONE. Casilla is just bad. Period. Show’s flashes of brilliance but can’t perform.
You can’t just “patch” a bullpen together. Twins tried that last year. It didn’t work.
And Perkins is still a solid lefty reliever. It’s amazing how losing weight helps with pitching.
you can always patch a bullpen together...
just look at the rays/padres just about every year.
as for valencia, i like the kid, and i think he’ll bounce back, but we can’t “count on it”. it’d be nice to have a good fallback.
We could have traded Capps for him!
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Damn. Someone invent a time machine...
Let loose the hogs of war!
Dogs of war..
Whatever farm animal of war, Lana...
Agreed. Red Socks selling low.
"I couldn't do that. Could you do that? Why can they do it? Who are those guys?"
how exactly does Lowrie suck?
he’d be our best MI by far.
His defense is Plouffe-like
Offensively, he’d be our best MI. Defensively, not so much.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
true..
but overall, he’d be our best IMO. and a tremendous fit (like Prado) providing insurance for Valencia at 3b as well.
You’re obsessed with Prado and these big names.
Valencia has had ONE full Major league season. Unfortunately he had a sophomore slump.
Lowrie would not be the best middle infielder with the choices we have. That’s a silly statement.
what?
no it’s not, at all. and i’m hardly alone in my assessment of Lowrie. Tons of analysts love him every bit as much as me and others on this board. Read Keith Law’s column today, for example. He had pretty much the exact same take as me on this trade. I’d say I’m not obsessed with “big names” at all; quite the contrary. Prado and Lowrie are both undervalued players right now, at positions of need, and both are good offensive players which is something we could use in our MI if we’re going to play a guy like Revere in the OF.
I like Valencia; I hope he rebounds and I think he may do just that, but I still wouldn’t mind having an insurance policy for him.
He's got those great 55 games in 2010... but not much else
He can’t stay healthy. He’ll be 28 next year.
just has needed a chance...
he’s finally getting that.
we shall see; i bet he’ll be a borderline all-star this year for houston.
If he can stay off the DL
He missed 130 games in 2009, 107 games in 2010 and 74 games in 2011. The Sox only sent him back to the minors for rehab stints.
I’m not denying his talent, but some guys end up like Nick Johnson.
sure, certainly possible...
still worth the chance. and i think the redsox sold really low on him.
keith law with a good writeup already on it.
They must have hired Bill Smith in Boston
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
i really don't get that organizational panic
they’d still be the favorites in that division this year IMO, if they still had francona and epstein.
I'm pretty sure Epstein's leaving was Epstein's choice
He had reversed the curse and now he was a little bored and wanted a challenge. That was my take from Boston media anyhow.
Francona was because you have to blame someone for the fried chicken and beer incidents. Sure, they’d be the favorites, but they were the favorites in 2011. Being the “favorite” doesn’t get them very far if there’s no discipline in the clubhouse.
by ColossusOfRhode on Dec 14, 2011 1:33 PM EST up reply actions
ya...
i just personally think all that stuff is overblown and they should have stayed the course. and my impression was that epstein probably was forced to can francona and probably wasn’t happy about it; those 2 are extremely close. who knows.
How much Red Sox baseball were you watching in September?
That was a pretty epic collapse. You don’t get away with failing like that in Boston these days. This is a town that expects to be the champion of all of the big four sports every year. They do not like losing. (I say this having lived in Boston for the bulk of the 2000s and noticing a marked change in the attitude of sports “fans” once the Pats and Sox started winning all the time.)
by ColossusOfRhode on Dec 14, 2011 1:53 PM EST up reply actions
sure...
and i understand the pr pressure. i just wouldn’t have done it is all i’m saying. they were ravaged by injuries, especially to the staff, late. and they figure to bounce back in a huge way this year, including getting the real carl crawford playing this year.
Yeah, I don't actually disagree with you
But I do think it was probably a good move for Epstein to leave at this point. He’s a guy who thrived on taking perennial also-rans and turning them into champions. Now that they’re seen as perennial champions, he’s got no room for error and the Boston media is not nice. Running the Cubs is probably more fun at this point.
by ColossusOfRhode on Dec 14, 2011 2:00 PM EST up reply actions
This is my problem.....
I think the Twins should SPEND more. They got there new stadium and after one year are cutting back payroll? Can anyone post what the Twins profits were last year?
by Fantasy Master on Dec 14, 2011 12:21 PM EST reply actions
they are spending more
Relative to the Dome days (i.e., before the new stadium), and the potential payroll cut is mostly about not spending $17 mil on the closer position as they did last year (Capps and Nathan).
I wouldn't be as concerned about the money if this team looked competitive
I think however they owe it to continue to spend a bit more this year to keep the team competitive. They can save some coin in a few years when some spendy guys are off the books and our prospects develop (hopefully). This year they need to spend in that same payrange they did last year to show that they are trying to stay competitive IMO.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
The main thing they will do this offseason to improve
Is get the MVP-caliber player healthy, hopefully.
The point being
They’ve recieved a ton of support in getting a new stadium and now in fans selling out that stadium consistently over the first two seasons. If they need to drop and extra 10-15 to keep this team competitive than they should probably be doing that as a thank you to the fans.
I also agree that if guys don’t get healthy it’s really not going to matter if they spend an extra 10 million or not.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
But they already have
If they spend $100 million this year, that’s $20-30 million more than they did when they played in the dome.
But I don’t think we know that $100 million is a hard cap, and I don’t think they should spend money for it’s own sake (that just screws your future flexibility).
So far I like how this off season is going. We need to add a starting pitcher. If we do that, I’m okay. If we do that and get a reliable bullpen arm and another bat, every fan should be quite happy.
I agree the 100 million isn't a hard cap at all
I’m saying it shouldn’t be and they should probably have a payrol lin the 110 range for sure.
I agree this offseason has been going well but as you said they need a starter, a bullpen arm, and another bat. To do that even halfways decent they’re going to have to spend around 110. I think we’re actually in agreement here, just stating the point differently.
Oh and yes I’m not for spending money just to spend it. I’m for making smart decisions like the Carroll, Doumit, and Willingham signings.
Hell I’ll even argue the Capps signing wasn’t that awful. I would have rather seen them go elsewhere but I like that it’s just a one year deal. Doesn’t hamstring the future, which is awesome.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
I'm horrified
I’m horrified to see Drew Butera’s name still on there.
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all."
~ Earl Weaver
"In God we trust. All others must provide evidence."
~ Billy Beane
Blue Jays, Four Others In On Carlos Beltran according to MLBTradeRumors.com
One of those teams being the Rockies. My point? Who the hell knows, other than the fact that corner outfielders with some pop aren’t that rare and aging corner outfielders aren’t as valuable as they often perceive themselves to be. Just ask Jermaine Dye. Cuddyer might have really cost himself some serious cash by being foolish enough to demand just a couple extra million from the twins…
Just speculating.
I don't know, but I've been told it's hard to run with the weight of gold,
'the other hand, I've heard it said, it's just as hard with the weight of lead.
by montanatwinsfan on Dec 14, 2011 1:44 PM EST reply actions
yeah, never mind.
mlbtraderumors just expanded the list of potential suitors.
I don't know, but I've been told it's hard to run with the weight of gold,
'the other hand, I've heard it said, it's just as hard with the weight of lead.
by montanatwinsfan on Dec 14, 2011 8:03 PM EST up reply actions
Bring BACK KUBEL
Yoenis Cespedes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW9ge8l3jY8
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Dec 14, 2011 3:18 PM EST reply actions
The Red Sox have agreed to sign Nick Punto, according to Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com.
First the Twins overpay and overuse him, and then they let him win a WS ring with another team.
and the Red Sox go from fried chicken and beer to juiceboxes in the clubhouse
"Nobody wants to hear me rap." - Joe Mauer
"The more toppings a man has on his pizza, I believe the more manly he is." - Herman Cain
by what_would_gil_thorp_do on Dec 14, 2011 3:47 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Juice boxes and buckets of fried chicken
The best of both worlds!
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Hope there is no beer in those juice boxes.
Let loose the hogs of war!
Dogs of war..
Whatever farm animal of war, Lana...
Like wine in a box
But somehow even less classy.
by ColossusOfRhode on Dec 14, 2011 6:42 PM EST up reply actions
Bags of Vodka
I literally saw this in Africa. People walking around with little clear pouches and I was incredibly confused. Asked a local what it was and he said Vodka. I never partook however, I’m more of a whiskey man myself.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
Draft picks?
If Cuddyer signs with the Mariners would the Twins get the “third” and “forth” picks in the second round? I think Oakland would get to pick at “two” for compensation for Willingham?
it's all laid out in the updated draft order post...
basically we would get the pick in the spot of seattle’s 2nd rd pick, and the mariners would get the pick right after that. we’d also get the first supplemental Type A pick, which currently sits at #38 and can be no lower than #39 (pending Madson’s new destination). right now for cuddy the highest possible picks we can get are #11 and #38 and the lowest possible picks we could get (assuming he signs with someone that hasn’t signed any other Type A’s) would be #39 and #81.
Terry Ryan "don't rule out re-signing Cuddyer just yet"
Is it possible that they will open the purse strings enough to sign both Willingham and Cuddyer? This might get real interesting now.
hope not..
give me Kubel over Cuddy. He’ll cost less, produce more, and get us at least 1 higher pick pack.
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