Who Will Be The New Twins Clubhouse Leader?
by Jon Marthaler on Dec 19, 2011 9:00 AM EST
in Speculation
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Michael Cuddyer has departed for the thin air of Colorado, and the Twins need a new team leader. (Much was made of Cuddyer's leadership skills in the clubhouse, so they must be important, far more important than hitting or pitching well.) However, it's still undecided who's going to take over as the de facto team captain. Below, a look at some of the possibilities:
JUSTIN MORNEAU
Pros: Loud. Tall. Canadian. In Canada the order of importance in society looks roughly like this:
- Prime Minister
- Captain of any NHL team
- Coach of Canadian world junior hockey team
- Maple Leafs GM
- Former member of "Kids In The Hall" comedy troupe
As you can see, captaincy is very important in Canada, and so all Canadians are automatically natural leaders.
Cons: Impossible to play through injuries when the injury is a head injury. (Unless you enjoy watching a guy with nausea, vertigo, and migraines try to play first base.)
JOE MAUER
Pros: Face of the franchise. Highest-paid player. Dreamy.
Cons: Would require Mauer to offend and/or yell at a fellow human being, something that's not in his makeup.
DENARD SPAN
Pros: Consistently good, and now one of the longer-tenured Twins. Beard makes him look mean.
Cons: Inevitable comparisons to Torii Hunter will mean that eventually Span will have to try to punch Justin Morneau, miss, and hit Nick Punto.
CARL PAVANO
Pros: Mustache.
Cons: Hard to be a leader when you play once every five days.
SCOTT BAKER
Pros: Third-longest-tenured Twin.
Cons: Would require him to talk.
FRANCISCO LIRIANO
Pros: Fourth-longest-tenured Twin.
Cons: Would require him to not anger the coaches every third start for one reason or another.
ALEXI CASILLA
Pros: Has shocking, possibly useful ability to stay on the team through thick and thin.
Cons: Space case.
GLEN PERKINS
Pros: Local boy made good.
Cons: (Joke deleted after Perkins filed a grievance.)
JOSH WILLINGHAM
Pros: Has giant, scary forearms.
Cons: Got here like two minutes ago.
The cupboard's a little bare, I'm afraid. Let's just hope that Morneau can stay healthy.
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It'll be like the Twins Starting Rotation and Aces
“We’ve got 5 aces” well….we have 25 captains.
Though in both cases I believe its because we don’t have anybody that is good enough to be called the either.
Remember, remember the seventh of November.
It kinda has to be Morneau or Span
They seem like the only two guys that are willing to give the team a collective kick in the ass when times get tough.
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it." - Ferris Bueller.
by Andrew Bryz-Gornia on Dec 19, 2011 10:21 AM EST reply actions
Mauer
Alwyas has been the leader, always will be. All that crap about rah rah guys is just that.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
by cmathewson on Dec 19, 2011 10:26 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
The Twins are going to have to buy more hammocks now.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
"Tell Gardy there's nobody around to protect him now." Ozzie Guillen
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Dec 19, 2011 10:30 AM EST up reply actions
Yep
I said this in an earlier fanshot, but if you watch him on the field, it’s clear that it’s his team. I suppose it can be debated whether or not he’s a good leader, but it’s pretty clear he’s got the job either way.
by ColossusOfRhode on Dec 19, 2011 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
leadership is highly overrated...
you don’t “lead” someone to pitch a shutout, or hit a homerun.
Ever notice how going to the gym is easier if you have a buddy with you?
Players can be lead… to focus, to train. A leader can correct disruptive behavior before it becomes a problem. In short, a player can be lead to be his best and make the team its best.
by spanspanspan on Dec 19, 2011 10:46 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Joe does all those things in a quiet way
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Right, I wasn't saying otherwise.
A leader doesn’t necessarily need to be vocal, like Cuddyer. Simple things like showing up for early BP or taking extra ground balls can do the trick, especially if the players around the leader respect him.
by spanspanspan on Dec 19, 2011 10:54 AM EST up reply actions
If you believe reports
from LEN, Souhan and Reusse, Mauer lost a lot of respect in the clubhouse, even from his own manager, last year. Everyone knows that Souhan was on it a lot (reporting that players rolled their eyes about Mauer’s rehab work) but Reusse reported that Gardy was tired of hearing from Mauer’s agent that Mauer wouldn’t be playing in certain ST games or that Mauer didn’t think he needed to catch many ST games to get ready. LEN reported how fed up a lot of players were that Mauer sat out a game with a cold (later diagnosed as pneumonia) and even teased him in print about it. And when Ryan came back, one of the things reported was how unhappy he was about how Mauer and Nishi approached their rehab work in Ft Myers.
I love Mauer and I’m glad he’s on the team but he’s not really a clubhouse leader guy. He might be the best player on the team, and that’s good. And maybe ‘clubhouse leadership’ is meaningless. But Mauer ain’t that guy.
"everyone knows"
that Souhan has made up the most stuff about Mauer and Slowey.
Souhan’s about as unreliable as they come IMO, and should be drug out in the street and shot for his “reporting”.
That's over the top
The lack of pushback from the Twins FO on his reporting seems to lend some support to it. Heck, the fact that they let Blyleven rip Slowey on the air suggests that Slowey had indeed burned bridges within the organization, as Souhan reported. (And Gladden said things on the radio that were similar to the issues Ryan was concerned about when he came back). Additionally, Reusse and LEN both reported similar issues with both Mauer and Slowey.
I understand not liking a columnist – when I was growing up, I hated Dan Barrerio so very, very much – but I’d also be shocked if a columnist simply makes stuff up.
It is way over the top.
But the “everyone knows” stuff is crap too. Rumors and innuendos are not facts.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
"Tell Gardy there's nobody around to protect him now." Ozzie Guillen
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Dec 19, 2011 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
I think you misread my first post
“everybody knows” was written to reference the point that everyone know of Souhan’s pieces on Mauer but might not have remembered similar articles by LEN or Reusse.
No, I misapplied the quote
But my point about 2nd and 3rd hand quotes as the source of the “reporting” you mentioned is the same.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
"Tell Gardy there's nobody around to protect him now." Ozzie Guillen
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Dec 19, 2011 4:35 PM EST up reply actions
Sure
but if we only got to get on record comments, sports pages would be pretty empty. Things like ARod being called “bitch tits” by his teammates wouldn’t come out.
So you have to trust the sources and also consider how the team responds to the articles.
That sounds like TMZ/National Inquirer style journalism to me.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
"Tell Gardy there's nobody around to protect him now." Ozzie Guillen
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Dec 19, 2011 4:45 PM EST up reply actions
It's not though
If we only had named sources we wouldn’t know about Bush’s yellow cake, wikileaks, 20th hijacker etc.
None of those were hearsay though.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
"Tell Gardy there's nobody around to protect him now." Ozzie Guillen
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Dec 19, 2011 5:33 PM EST up reply actions
Since Ryan has taken over, he's pushed back hard
Recently, Ryan said, “Most of the problems with the medical staff were about communication.” Translation: They screwed up how they communicated about injuries. The most egregious was this bilateral leg weakness bullshit. They’ve since recanted that misdiagnosis, but tell that o Reusse and Souhan, who are still reporting it.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Non-diagnosis
“Bilateral Leg Weakness” is the kind of diagnosis one gets from doctors when they have no idea. All it means is weakness in both legs.
i personally have “non-allergic rhinitis” meaning my nose runs but I’m not allergic to anything. In other words “We are highly paid doctors so we are not allowed to say we just don’t know”.
I knew I wasn’t allergic to anything and that my nose was running before I ever went to the first doctor. I bet Joe knew both legs were weak before he ever saw a doctor. I suspect he is as annoyed as we are.
It's a technical term for a neurological disorder
What is leg weakness (bilateral)?
A person with leg weakness (bilateral) has muscle weakness in both legs. Weakness may be caused by a malfunction of the brain, the spinal cord, or nerves. These structures transmit signals from the brain, which stimulate the muscles to move the leg.
Joe had weakness in both legs. The one was cased by residual affects of knee surgery. Favoring his bad knee caused weakness in the other. They used the wrong technical term for something with a simple, explainable origin. It caused quite a stir at the time, with some people speculating that it was career threatening.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Nutshell
And there in a nutshell you have described the problem with the Twins and the media. For some reason, they are able to control the TV broadcasters and newspaper reporters in ways that I DOUBT any other teams can. It’s weird. “Don’t say anything bad about Nicky. P or B. Say something bad about Slowey….please. Say bad things about guys after they leave. Make vocal love with Ben Revere. And hand-written love. Talk about his smile, if nothing else. If a guy went to college, he won’t be long for this team, so rip him all you want.” It’s that kind of crap that is so frustrating with this team and this market.
by originaltwinsfan on Dec 19, 2011 7:16 PM EST up reply actions
I'm sorry but...
What the shit are you talking about?
by spanspanspan on Dec 19, 2011 7:18 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Huh?
Media loves Punto and Blackburn. True fans realize they suck. True fans realize Slowey got a raw deal from the Twins. In what world is Nick Blackburn worth 10+ million$$, but Slowey is worth a PTBNL? That’s freakin’ nuts. Also, Ben Revere is being force-fed down our throats. The Twins are kind of like a communist country.
by originaltwinsfan on Dec 19, 2011 7:34 PM EST up reply actions
That's a bit over the top
Blackburn, by advanced metrics, had been a consistent 2 WAR player when he signed his contract and it paid based on that under the arbitration figuration.
And having lived out east for a decade, I can promise you that the YES announcers drink a lot more kool-aid than Dick and Bert.
Well then comrade,
Where the hell is my vodka ration?
The Twins are kind of like a communist country.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
"Tell Gardy there's nobody around to protect him now." Ozzie Guillen
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Dec 20, 2011 8:58 AM EST up reply actions
Lead by none otehr than....
Chairman Maoauer! (We just learned about Chairman Mao in geography today, I kept thinking about Chairman Mauer jokes..:)
"The problem with baseball is that it is not played year round" -Gaylord Perry
by twinsgirl197 on Dec 21, 2011 8:11 PM EST up reply actions
I don't believe those reports
I think lazy reporters listen to what they hear. The better reporters, Like Joe C., at least seek out the truth. Joe got Mauer’s side of the story. Which, as I’ve said way too often already, was all about a second surgery on his bad knee late in the offseason. Everything else was just the consequences of trying to come back on an aggressive timeline after the medical staff inexplicably delayed the surgery.
If Gardy and Cuddy had a problem with that, whatever. They’re wrong. People say stupid things. It doesn’t mean you have to print it every time they do. Come to think of it, maybe Cuddy was the instigator, similar to Hunter before him. If so, good riddance.
Even after surgeries last year and in his rookie year, Mauer still has caught more games than any other catcher in baseball since he first made the team.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Actually Souhan interviewed Mauer directly, too
And, as mentioned, LEN and Reusse also found similar issues. (Incidentally, you got your facts wrong again, between 05-10, Mauer caught more games than anyone but if you take last year into account, he hasn’t).
And this discussion wasn’t whether or not Mauer is soft, it is whether he is respected in the locker room enough to be a captain. LEN, Reusse, Souhan have all written about issues he’s had.
They never quoted Mauer
And, by the way, what catcher has played more games at the position than Joe?
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Who needs to quote Mauer?
When talking about how he is perceived in the clubhouse by his team mates? Although, even Joe C’s article you alluded to had a section heading acknowledging Mauer’s weakened reputation.
As to your catching thing. Between 05-10, Jason Kendell, Brian McCann, Yadier Molina and AJ Persinski (sp) all caught more innings than Mauer. Those four, plus Benjie Molina and Pudge Rodriguez also started more games than Mauer. If we count 2011, Mauer passes both Pudge and Benjie but is also passed by Russell Martin in starts and innings caught. (I was wrong as well, I thought only McCann would be above him). Mauer’s ranking in innings caught between 05 and 10 in the AL – 10, 6, 12, 2, 5 and 5.
Who were the teammates they quoted?
Anonymous sources don’t count. I’m thinking it’s Cuddy, who insisted on playing through an injury and had one of the worst slumps in his career as a result. It was during this time that Souhan took jabs at Mauer for not playing through his torn knee earlier in the year while Cuddy played through his sore back.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
I don't know, maybe a journalist?
You think they should be writing stories about guys without giving them the chance to respond? Really?
As for the stats, is there a reason that you quoted a bunch but not the one that cmath mentioned? Who played the most games at catcher over that stretch?
I did give those stats
from 05-10, four guys caught more innings, six guys started more games (those six also played in more games as catcher if we’re getting into late game substitutions). Not sure what I missed, or what you think I missed.
There were a lot of articles this season, not just from Souhan, that brought into question Mauer’s standing in the clubhouse. I guess if one wants to ignore every sports article that isn’t sourced, or all columnist opinions (except those they agree with), they could.
There are different news services besides the Strib
The Strib had three guys saying (Souhan, Reusse, LEN III) what you say and one (Joe C.) saying the opposite. The first three did not interview Joe. Joe C. did. The three amigos just kept repeating the same stuff over and over again. The PiPress had no stories on Mauer’s position in the clubhouse, except for Shooter, who denied what the three amigos reported. Neither did any of the national media.
You can choose to believe Souhan, Reusse and LENIII over the rest of the industry if you want. Just don’t claim that it’s the undisputed truth. It is highly questionable.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Oh, it was a more than 3 guys
Bob Sansevre (sp) had fun too. http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/story/15485646/mauers-toughness-questioned -
Nowhere in that article
Does it say Joe’s reputation is held in low esteem by anyone in the clubhouse or that his leadership is in question. Just “a lot of people are saying it, mostly [frustrated] Twins fans…”
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
"Tell Gardy there's nobody around to protect him now." Ozzie Guillen
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Dec 19, 2011 4:56 PM EST up reply actions
That bastion of sports opinion
This is how myths and legends happen. One guy (LEN III) talks to one guy (Cuddy) who speaks off the cuff about how he missed Joe and wishes he was playing, how he doesn’t understand why he had to go on the DL, how he questions a guys leadership if he can’t play through stuff like this ,etc. LEN III reports it as a scoop, and talks to the medical staff, who give him completely the wrong information.
And the lazy columnists repeat what LEN III wrote as fact without going back and checking on it. Souhan, Reusse and Sansevere do almost no research or interviews. They sit at their laptops making stuff up for a living.
Just because a lot of guys repeat one story over and over doesn’t make it true. The history books are replete with disinformation that started with lazy, single-source journalism. The difference is, historians don’t often have living subjects they can interview to corroborate stories.
Why would they do this? It’s a lot more interesting to say the local bonus baby and future hall of famer is a bum than to sing his praises. They get paid to be interesting, not to be right. If they got paid to be right, they’d be out of a job.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Where citations come from:
Yup. I’ve seen it happen with far more respected sources too (scientist A writes a paper; scientist B cites scientist A; scientist C sees B’s citation, doesn’t feel like checking it and cites A; scientist D reads scientist C, doesn’t check it, cites A, etc.).
by spanspanspan on Dec 19, 2011 5:01 PM EST up reply actions
My favorite example from my last job
- Scientist A makes up data for paper 1 and says its just for illustrating a point.
- Scientist B cites paper 1 as source for data in paper 2 but fails to mention it is made up.
- Scientist A cites paper 2 as source for data in paper 3, which is written to confirm the hypotheses of paper 1 with “real” data.
Cable news does this cyclical referencing too. I have no doubt it happens in sports journalism as well.
by ColossusOfRhode on Dec 20, 2011 2:11 AM EST up reply actions
Call it a hypothetical
Some people are so wedded to the mainstream media, they have a hard time questioning bad reporting.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
on 1500 Friday
Souhan said in reponse to a question about the Twins missing Cuddy’s leadership skills, “Leadership is the most overated attribute in sports.” I couuldn’t believe he said that. Mackey, thankfully, responded by saying that this is mostly propulgated by reporters, to which top Jimmy made an even more isiotic comment saying that reporters who write that are being lazy and need something to write. Unreal!!!! What an idiot.
I didn't know if you missed anything
I just didn’t know why you used a different stat, and I wasn’t sure were to look to find out who played the most games at catcher during that period.
You've done a good job of showing that many people in this organization are jerks.
Not sure whether you’ve given any evidence actually about Mauer. though.
He's the captain on the field
Even when he plays first base. You’re not paying attention if you don’t see it.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Is that because there is no sabery stat for leadership?
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
"Tell Gardy there's nobody around to protect him now." Ozzie Guillen
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Dec 19, 2011 11:42 AM EST up reply actions
:-)
Always going to off by at least 5e-34 Joule-seconds. (too bad the prefixes stop at e-24).
Obvious that uncertainty explains why we only won 63 games last year. :-)
Tell that to Dr. Higgs
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
A Higgs boson walks into a church...
The priest says, “We don’t allow Higgs bosons here.”
The Higgs boson replies, “But without me how can you have mass?”
/rimshot
by spanspanspan on Dec 19, 2011 12:22 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
^ Classic!!
JIM JAMS BUSINESS IS MASHING TATERS, AND BUSINESS IS GOOD!!!
by MashinTaters on Dec 19, 2011 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
Haha!
No, I totally got that one, really!
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
"Tell Gardy there's nobody around to protect him now." Ozzie Guillen
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Dec 19, 2011 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not sure
The Canadian prime minister ranks over the Maple Leaf’s GM.
Anyhoo, what about Ron Gardenhire? Isn’t that one of his job descriptions, along with bowling and getting Drew Butera 250 ABs?
Steve Goodman lives.
There are always disconnects between people of different ranks
Gardy is there to lead, of course. But leadership from a superior is different from the leadership of a peer.
by spanspanspan on Dec 19, 2011 11:01 AM EST up reply actions
I really hate all this “leadership” and “clubhouse chemistry” crap. Does it exist? Yep. Is it important? No. The 1977 Yankees proved that.
by Brady Eyestone on Dec 19, 2011 12:42 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions
I'd give it a bit more weight.
Ever worked somewhere and didn’t really like your co-workers? Makes it a struggle to even go to work or to perform at your highest level.
by spanspanspan on Dec 19, 2011 12:50 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Span, Carroll, Mauer, Morneau, Pavano and maybe Capps
They can’t have just one leader. They have a solid group of veteran players who know how to get the job done – Mauer, Morneau, Carroll, Span and Pavano. The manager and coaches seem to like Capps, he does things the way they want them done.
It’s Mauer now and it always has been Mauer. The Twins live and die by Mauer.
As for Morneau, he only got decent after bunking with Mauer for a season. ’Nuff said there.
Leadership won’t save them from their atrocious pitching staff, however.
I know small sample size and everything...
But for every starter other than Baker, the stats seem to say Mauer is making them better. He gets significantly better K/BB from the rest, for example.
by spanspanspan on Dec 19, 2011 1:53 PM EST up reply actions
Thank you, this got me laughing this morning!!!!
So it’s always has been Mauer huh? It may have to be now, but to say it always has been is just plain laughable.
How many clubhouse meetings have you sat in on?
by Brady Eyestone on Dec 19, 2011 2:57 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Maybe Mauer can sleep with them too.
That’s what you’re insinuating with the Morneau comment, right? Venereal transfer of baseball skills?
Morneau
He is the only one that takes the rivalries seriously. I can’t say a bad thing about the man since the Tehan conversations last off-season
REPORTER: What do you think is happening to the team?
MICHAEL RAY RICHARDSON: The ship be sinking.
REPORTER: How far can it sink?
MICHAEL RAY RICHARDSON: Sky's the limit.
Can Koskie be hired as the team leader?
He’s Canadian to satisfy the Morneau crowd and he…umm…sorry Mauer fans I don’t know what Koskie does for you BUT Koskie does destroy chairs with baseball bats and leads the Twins to victories (at least once in Cleveland)
So my vote is for Koskie as Leader!
Clubhouse leader?
Have the team vote for their own captain.
Joe Mauer
Leads by example.
"Baseball, it is said, is only a game. True. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole in Arizona." ~George F. Will
Alexi Casilla
Is my favorite Twin now.
Screw. You. Guys.
"It happened in the moment, and it happened." - Carlos Gomez
All I have to say is if Carl Pavano is your leader, you’re in deep, deep trouble.
Oh, and Scott Baker is awesome. Not sure why, just is.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
Willingham!
Justin Morneau and Denard Span, still dealing with concussion issues, don’t even realize that Cuddyer has left. Willingham has taken his place in RF and in the batting order so Justin and Denard look to him to be the leader. The rest of the club house follows along, even though they feel they should tell Justin and Denard that Cuddyer is playing in Colorado.
this team is a leaderless team and starts with the manager
they are all a bunch of candy asses and its time to clean house
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