Fallout: Twins Trade Kevin Slowey to Rockies
by Jesse on Dec 6, 2011 11:31 AM EST
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PrintNobody is really surprised that the Twins sent Kevin Slowey away. He was often injured and, through no fault of his own, was jerked around by the team. This is a case where both parties have something to gain by splitting up.
For Kevin, it means a fresh start in Colorado. His fly ball rates won't help him, but if he can regain a fraction of the promise he occasionally flashed in Minnesota then the Rockies might have a decent arm. He needs to improve his command and say out of the strike zone a little more, and if he can stay healthy and get back to form on strikeout rates then it's entirely possible he can be a good pitcher.
But the Twins always knew that, and unfortunately it wasn't about being a good pitcher anymore.
Here's what this trade signifies for Minnesota.
- It frees up what Slowey would have made through arbitration this season, roughly $2.7 to $3 million dollars. It's not a small chunk of change considering the resources the team is (or isn't) working with over the winter.
- This takes one more option out of Minnesota's internal starter list. Scott Baker, Francisco Liriano, Carl Pavano and Nick Blackburn remain the top four in all likelihood, but now that fifth spot (barring an addition) is down to Anthony Swarzak, Liam Hendriks (who should begin the year in Rochester) and Brian Duensing (who has been pegged for the bullpen).
- The fact that the Twins are getting nothing more than cash or a player to be named later means that a spot has opened up on the 40-man roster.
Stay tuned to see how the Twins fill that roster spot.
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Take a deep breath, DJ
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
I just think it's terrible valuation of assets...
I was hopeful Terry Ryan would not be the same as Bill Smith, but this doesn’t give me much hope.
We’ll probably end up signing a worse pitcher than Slowey for more money. Stupid.
by DJSkillz on Dec 6, 2011 11:40 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Not really
Slowey needed to be gone, however Denver Colorado is the worst possible place for him to pitch.
I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew
Champagne SuperTolbert Saves the day!!!
Just about every conceivable stat he had last year other than walks was the worst in his career.
He finished 0-8 with a 6.67 ERA and a -.6 WAR.
Is there a worse pitcher we could sign? Inconceivable!
Just trying to add some humor.
Let loose the hogs of war!
Dogs of war..
Whatever farm animal of war, Lana...
if that's a fair representation of him, sure...
but it’s not.
What is fair? He has not been a 1.0 WAR pitcher since 2008.
He was abysmal last year. The fact that we can get anything for him is somewhat surprising. I am just trying to determine why you are so high on him and think he is worth anything?
Let loose the hogs of war!
Dogs of war..
Whatever farm animal of war, Lana...
2009-2011
305ip, 83 ERA+, 1.1 total WAR, plummeting k-rate, 20 QS in 52 starts (38%!), -2.8 WPA. Brutal, brutal, brutal player.
I'm always confused
I’ll have to have Slowey explain. Is trading a fly ball pitcher to Colorado, an example of irony.
I think going to the NL will counterballance that to some exptent
The ideal place for him is Petco. Even there, he’d end up pitching in Coors a couple of times.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
competition
It also won’t hurt to have a half-dozen or so starts against those pip-squeak lineups of San Francisco and San Diego, and the Dodgers lineup isn’t terribly scary either.
That's what I mean abvout the NL
You get three free outs a start.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
But that has to be counterbalanced
That would be up to six free outs per start.
Don’t forget Kevin Slowey has to bat too.
In a Complete 9 inning regulation game where the visitors are the winning team, there are 54 total outs with six of them being free. That means that 48 at bats are at least competitive. In order to pitch a perfect game, Kevin Slowey must get at least 24 out. But this is assuming that there are no pinch hitters like Jason Kubel professional hitter.
I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew
Champagne SuperTolbert Saves the day!!!
wait what
"Nobody wants to hear me rap." - Joe Mauer
"The more toppings a man has on his pizza, I believe the more manly he is." - Herman Cain
by what_would_gil_thorp_do on Dec 6, 2011 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
All I am saying is this
In National League games there are 48 total outs to truly make if you count the pitcher’s spot as an automatic out.
I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew
Champagne SuperTolbert Saves the day!!!
I understand the typical timeframe for a mid-season trade involving a “player to be named later”, but when a Winter Meetings trade involving a PTBNL occurs, when is that player typically named? In a few days? A few weeks? Before spring training?
Someone in the other thread was dead on
It’s a player not on the 40 man roster so they are likely subject to the rule V draft. The Twins are probably just waiting to make sure he’s not taken.
That or the Twins are going to draft a player from Colorado and then get full rights to the player rather than having to keep him on the 25 man roster all year.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
baseball hound
had two Rockies listed as eligible for Rule V draft
Cory Riordan and Parker Frazier.
minor league ball
compared Frazier to the Twins BJ Hermsen.
“A pitcher along similar lines is Colorado Rockies prospect Parker Frazier, 11-11, 4.44 in 148 innings for High-A Modesto, with a 105/46 K/BB, 162 hits allowed, and a 1.36 GO/AO. An eighth-round pick in 2007 from high school in Tulsa, the 6-5, 160 pound right-hander is the son of former major league pitcher George Frazier. He is fully recovered now from 2009 Tommy John surgery. Frazier has an upper-80s, low-90s sinker with good movement, as well as a solid slider. He is working on his changeup and may end up as a reliever at higher levels, although he’s eating innings well this year. He’s 22, and while his statistical performance has never quite matched his reputation with scouts, the “throws strikes, gets grounders” combination is still worth watching."
Son of a Twin
Maybe he can throw to Butera in spring training and their dads can reminisce.
According to Baseball Reference
Cory Riordan had a bad year at Double AA Tulsa regressing from his 2010 record 8-5 with a record of 1-12 in Double A Tulsa. His ERA ballooned from 4.01 to 5.30 from 2010 to 2011 and his strikeout rate steadly declined throughout his minor league career. I would pass on Riordan.
I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew
Champagne SuperTolbert Saves the day!!!
Other possibilities
They are at 38 roster spots. One of those goes to either Cuddyer or Willingham. They might want to keep the other open to draft the best player available on Thursday. Assuming they don’t draft anyone, they can get someone from Colorado’s 40-man. If they do draft someone, they can get player not on Colorado’s 40-man. Either way, they won’t determine the player until after the draft.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Whatever
I just think it seems stupid to trade guys when there value is at its lowest. If we keep him in what right now looks like a rebuilding year and he has a decent 1st half even we could probably get something godo for him. Now, well I’m in serious doubt of that.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
Maybe it was just time for the Twins and Slowey to part ways.
There comes a point where it’s just no good anymore. And maybe the Twins wanted to use his $2.5 million somewhere else.
Barring a breakout season from Slowey, this won’t be a make or break decision.
I don't think it's $2.5 million
More like $3.5 million. Still, I agree. He was not going to make the starting rotation, and he didn’t want to be a reliever. So…
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Capps is taking a pay cut
Reportedly, so no.
I think it was a couple days ago
Ryan was quoted as believing it to be his job to clean the slate with Slowey.
We all knew he was a candidate for a non-tender anyway
by twinscrazy_german on Dec 6, 2011 1:37 PM EST up reply actions
Right
Anything we get for him is more than we were prepared to take.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
JJ Hardy, part 2
I don’t really think that this will turn into a repeat of the JJ Hardy trade, but it is certainly possible. Last year when they traded him, I suggested Hardy would get MVP votes. If he were on a better team, he would have.
Will Slowey get any Cy Young votes in Colorado? Unlikely. But I’ve said before; he could go the Cliff Lee route—stellar minors (Slowey’s better than Lee’s), middling to awful mid-20’s, demotion, and then, voilà turns a corner into awesomeness.
by AM. on Dec 6, 2011 12:00 PM EST via mobile reply actions
JJ Hardy was pretty dang good with us that year.
Slowey was abysmal last year.
Let loose the hogs of war!
Dogs of war..
Whatever farm animal of war, Lana...
Slowey could be Cliff Lee . . .
but more likely he will suck worse than he did last year
by That'sWhatSheSaid on Dec 6, 2011 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
agreed...
terrible move. gives me no confidence in TR at the helm.
Awful
Bad thinking leads to this sort of thing. Slowey has things going for him. I get that he had awful results last year, and I get that he might not stay healthy. If the question was weather to sign him long term big dollar, I would understand not doing it.
But here’s a guy who’s career K rate is above average, his career BB rate is fantastic, and is 28 years old. That’s a guy worth keeping for this price.
I’d rather gamble that I can get 25-30 starts out of him than a lot of things they are probably going to do with the rotation this year.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 6, 2011 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
Slowey turning into Cliff Lee?
LMFAO. If only Slowey could cut his FB% in half.
I think Slowey needed a fresh start and I think he will do fine in Colorado
That being said we need to use a few of these now I think:
Just because:
And from less cowbell:
http://www.twinkietown.com/2011/8/14/2362386/the-return-of-hipster-kevin-slowey
Remember, remember the seventh of November.
by Go Twins! on Dec 6, 2011 12:03 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
*Sigh*
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
#OccupyTwinkieTown
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Dec 6, 2011 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
This series of deals from our new/old GM
makes me very fearful that after so many years of pinching pennies for Carl Pohlad in the Metrodome has made him uncomfortable working with all those dollars from Jim Pohlad and Target Field. It seems his strategy may be to decimate the team so much that fans quit buying tickets/merchandise, thus putting the payroll back in the cheapskate range where he can work his magic.
It’s not so much that Slowey is gone and Capps is still here, but that there seems to be no forward plan other than perhaps to make the Twins the most boring team in baseball (except for Danny). Are they rebuilding? They obviously aren’t trying to win…
Sorry, I’ll stop now…I know this is negative, but I’m just too depressed.
The other teams could make trouble for us if they win. — Yogi Berra
I think you're over-estimating Slowey's importance.
And that of Capps, for that matter. In the grand scheme of things, whether either of these guys are on the team it’s not likely to make THAT much of a difference.
There isn’t some grand conspiracy here. This is a move that’s been coming for months.
My point exactly
Neither Slowey nor Capps is a difference maker. Same for Jamie Carroll, Ryan Doumit, Ben Revere, etc., etc.
I was fine with keeping Capps at $3M or less, but $4.75? Not so much.
I know Slowey wasn’t going to stay, but it’s the idea that we got nothing for him. How many times has that happened? (Hardy, Ramos, Delmon, Kubel probably) Plus, he was a lot of fun. I just hope we haven’t lost another player who might have been decent except for Gardy’s inability to deal with strong personalities (Garza). He has a hard time with Danny, too.
Listen, nobody wants to have to eat crow more than I do, so let’s hope I’m totally wrong. It’s just…Carlos Guillen?…Noooo.
The other teams could make trouble for us if they win. — Yogi Berra
Kubel's
The only one there for whom we’re likely getting literally nothing.
The other guys were all traded for something approximating what they were worth on the trade market at the time.
I get that you might think they were worth more, and hindsight definitely agrees with you on Hardy and Ramos, but we still didn’t get nothing for them.
We got negative value for Hardy
They actually let Hoey pitch in some major league games. In 24 2/3 innings, he gave up 13 walks and 34 hits. They would have been better off trading him for a peanut.
I wouldn't say we got nothing for Delmon
Oliveros had good success in the minors, 11.2 k/9 and it didn’t decline much as he moved up levels.
I'm not sure I see your logic
We’re not trying to win? I actually think they’re straddling the fence between rebuild and try and win the central and won’t know what they’ll do until the season starts. If Mauer, Morneau and Span are healthy, they’ll have a shot and, if 100m payroll, flexibility to add players if needed. If our season is a wreck, they can move Capps (presuming a decent season from him) for prospects and rebuild.
Slowey had no affect on either option. He’s a bad pitcher so wouldn’t help us win. His value wasn’t going to get better and it would’ve just cost us $ to keep him. He probably wouldn’t make the starting rotation so we’d be paying him 2.6m to start at AAA.
Perkins was cost controlled
and at least had had major surgery.
Did he?
He got his wrist operated on 3 years ago. Perkins was coming back from rotator cuff surgery when he fell into the doghouse. And, as mentioned, was much cheaper.
a wrist surgery is major surgery...
coming from someone who has had it and had to undergo rehab for a year. twins didn’t do him any favors with their misuse of him this year either.
Slowey's done?
Why are you so confident that a 27-year-old pitcher is done after one bad season? Seems a little premature to close the book on his career.
2008 vs 2010
What is the distinguishing factor for you that makes 2008 a good season and 2010 a terrible season for him?
agreed...
slowey will make this move look very stupid, and soon.
Trying to argue any point with you is somewhat useless
You just make these blanket statements like they are facts, and any idea counter to your viewpoint is not up for debate, it is just wrong.
WHY will Slowey make this look stupid? Just a feeling? Cannot be anything you saw last year…
You could very well be right and he could bounce back, but I fail to see why you have such strong feelings about this. HE WAS AWFUL last year, and has not been above average since 2008. What about him are you so sure about?
Let loose the hogs of war!
Dogs of war..
Whatever farm animal of war, Lana...
it's called an opinion..
no one said it’s a “statement of fact”.
my OPINION: Slowey has talent and upside and this will end up looking stupid.
He's trying to determine what facts you are basing your opinion on
So far all we’ve gotten is some conspiracy theories of staff misuse. What makes you think that at 28, Slowey will suddenly be able to be a good starting pitcher? What have you seen over the last few years that makes that likely?
sometimes i post quickly...
instead of expounding on something we’ve been over at length for YEARS on this board.
Slowey has always had amazing control;
he was a stellar minor league pitcher;
he was an above average major league pitcher just a couple of years ago;
he’s coming into his prime years;
he was hurt and still finding his way back;
he was terribly misused by the twins last year; first being put in the pen when he “won” the rotation job in ST then being pitched 3 out of 4 days to begin the season when the Twins knew he had a history of taking a long time to warm up, and never having pitched in the pen before. he got hurt as a result, and was hurt pretty much all year.
Maybe he breaks back out, maybe not, but it’s not unreasonable at all to think he will, and for less than $3M for 1 year, it’s a great gamble to take, especially for a team that is lacking pitching depth and is paying a guy like Nick Blackburn $5.5M, who has been one of the worst starters in baseball the last couple of years.
There…good enough? Again, I’ ve posted on this topic hundreds of times over the last year; didn’t feel the need to expand fully every damn time I post on it.
Bad reasons
He doesn’t walk anyone, agreed. He was a solid prospect but let’s not get carried away, BA ranked him as high as #71, Perkins and Blackburn were both ranked higher.
He’s already in his prime years and been horrible.
He had wrist surgery in July 2009. It’s been two years.
If the Twins misused him by trying to have him go to the pen, which led to two extended DL stints, then it’s time for him to go anyway.
Blackburn, for all his warts, has been better than Slowey. And Blackburn has (probably for the negative) been willing to pitch hurt.
Someone has a Slowey Jersey
and has to sell it on E-bay at a reduced cost.
The worry with Slowey was that he had no "out pitch"
Hitters could just keep fouling pitches off which wore him out and kept him from going deep into games.
I don’t think that problem was ever resolved.
Yes
Slowey can throw a lot of strikes, but that doesn’t mean he has great control (if that makes any sense). I don’t have the numbers to back it up, but IIRC a large percentage of his Ks were called thirds. Since Slowey has come to the big leagues he has had trouble putting away good ML hitters because he really doesn’t have an out pitch. IMHO, the stuff isn’t good enough to be better than a #3 and with the injury problems along with frequent short starts, he comes out borderline at best, to stay in a major league rotation.
by Alexi Casilla All-Star on Dec 6, 2011 11:21 PM EST up reply actions
Yes
He has a good fastball. And he throws a lot of strikes with it. But he has no offspead stuff that will miss bats. If the hitter is fooled, he generally can at least foul his secondary stuff off. This is why he struggles to make it out of the sixth inning.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
"A couple of years ago"
His last (and only) good year was 2008. He’s had flashes of the kind of pitcher who dominated the minors since then. But he’s also had a lot of short starts. It’s a leap to say he is capable of being that pitcher on a consistent basis at this stage. I admire your faith, but I don’t think the facts support your opinion.
From a scouting perspective, his main problem is mediocre secondary stuff. I understand the wrist injury limited his ability to spin the ball. The hope last year was that he would be able to get back to his 2008 level with a healthy wrist. I didn’t see it. I saw the same pitcher he’s been since the injury—capable of dominating for a few innings and incapable of getting out of the sixth without giving up a crooked number. Some thought the permanent pin in his wrist would have a permanent affect. That’s what I see. The numbers bear that out.
I hope he has more success in the National League, where fewer hitters are as used to his delivery.
I agree on Blackburn, but I think they’re kind of stuck with his salary. They could just release him, I guess. But they’ll give him a shot and if he pitches like he did last year (save for May) they’ll use someone else.
I think they’re going to get a veteran to replace Slowey. Then Blackburn will be the fifth starter and the first one moved out of the rotation if when he fails.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
In 08
he was a 24 year old pitcher with some projectable upside. Good season. 2+ WAR, 105 ERA+, didn’t walk anyone. His innings were limited a bit but you could see why one would think this guy could stick around in a rotation. Never happened.
His 2010 season wasn’t as good. Less innings in more starts, inability to go 6 innings starts to become real problem. ERA+ goes below league avg, WAR goes under 1. He’s, at best, a replacement level pitcher. Twins give him a chance at end of season to pitch himself onto playoff roster and he blew it pretty good. Age 27 season is even worse and he burns most bridges with team.
all good points
and I completely understand your opinion. I just look at his overall stat line between 2008 and 2010 and it doesn’t jump off the page as being a huge regression. They are close enough that switching one really good start for one really bad start is about enough to make up the difference. Additionally, the outfield defense of Kubel, Young and Span did him no favors. Switch Kubel for Gomez (about as big a defensive switch as you can make) and you have the 2008 outfield. Also, his BABIP was about 20 points higher in 2010, which he may or may not have had much control over (fairly defense dependent). If I remember my different WARs correctly, Fangraphs is more aggressive in trying to eliminate defensive contributions from pitching WAR, which is probably why Slowey had a much better fWAR (2.2) in 2010.
I’m not a scout, and sadly I wasn’t able to watch a ton of games in 2010-11, so I can’t really comment regarding the change in his “stuff” after the wrist surgery.
Anyways, those are my reasons why I was in the “don’t give up on him yet” camp. I would have preferred once more go-around in the rotation for Slowey. Oh well, water under the bridge at this point.
Basically
Slowey was ok the first time through the order, but he usually hit a roadblock in the middle innings to the point that he pretty much lost the game for himself and the Twins. In short, his arm wasn’t used to starting when he was in the bullpen for the first part of the season.
I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew
Champagne SuperTolbert Saves the day!!!
Just out of curiosity
Did Bill Smith come back and take over the Twins again? I felt like Ryan was doing a good job up until the Winter Meetings started….Now I am on the fence about his dealings. Not up in arms like the Hardy trade but less on board than I have been.
For now I guess I am of the mindset: In Ryan We Trust.
Remember, remember the seventh of November.
Naively perhaps, but so am I.
I liked the Carroll signing and I liked the Doumit signing. Slowey was not going to be here one way or the other, and have no great feelings on it.
I dislike bringing back Capps, but I am just going to hold out hope that his suckitude was based on his forearm injury last year and he will bounce back. Perhaps naively so, but that is what being a fan is I guess.
I am encouraged that we made a decent yet not overwhelming offer to Cuddyer and by the fact that we offered a competitive offer to Buehrle even if we don’t get him. Maybe less that he will get from another team, but certainly a guy to go after.
I guess the real litmust test is who is on our 25 man roster when the season starts. If Tolbert and Butera are on it, then I will less excited by Terry Ryan’s return. Last year, even just outside of the wins and losses, the team was just painful to watch. Lousy fielders, lousy fundamentals, and far too many lousy, lousy hitters. Even if we are not ready to contend for the division again, so far I am encouraged that the team will at least be more worth watching.
Let loose the hogs of war!
Dogs of war..
Whatever farm animal of war, Lana...
Ryan hand-picked Smith to succeed him.
He also gave Smith advice the last few years.
What I want to know is, what exactly were the “philosophical differences” between the Pohlads and Smith, and where are we going under Ryan?
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
#OccupyTwinkieTown
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Dec 6, 2011 1:33 PM EST up reply actions
Good question
My guess was Smith wanted a payroll around 115 or higher and try to win again with this nucleus.
I rather doubt
That the ownership insisted on not trying to win.
But they might have disagreed on payroll.
I suspect they can be summed up as
“you keep doing stupid crap and have a philosophical objection to that.”
My guess is all of Bill Smith's stupid trades.
And the inability to trade Michael Cuddyer, Jason Kubel, and/or Matt Capps for prospects. In the lead-up to our 12 game homestand right after the all-star break, there was discussion on us being 8-4 so we could be buyers. We finished 6-6 and right after that homestand finished, TK said that we need to be sellers and the only thing Bill Smith was willing to sell was Denard Span for bullpen help.
I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew
Champagne SuperTolbert Saves the day!!!
The thing about Capps as closer
Is that last year we paid him ($7.15 mil) and Nathan ($11.25 mil) big time closer money. Next year we will have (reportedly) $4.5 mil. allocated to the position.
Capps isn’t the player that a healthy Nathan was, or even close, but at least we aren’t blows so much cash on paying for saves.
And the $14 mil less almost covers what the team was planning to trim from the payroll (leaving all of what we paid for Kubel and Cuddyer, and whatever we save in the Slowey trade to be spent).
That is one objective way of looking at that number
That is a savings of $11.4 million after factoring in Joe Nathan’s buyout.
I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew
Champagne SuperTolbert Saves the day!!!
Ryan had no choice...trade Slowey or non-tender him.
He needs every dollar he can find to live withing the $100mm or so budget. Add to that the fact that bridges were burned last year and Slowey could not be brought back with the same on field management. I expect the biggest change we all will see next year is a lot less bad mouthing of players by Gardy, etc. They destroyed any value the Twins had and every other team knew it. Getting anything for Slowey shows that Ryan hasn’t lost his touch. Bill Smith would have gotten nothing, then non-tendered Kevin.
by roger13 on Dec 6, 2011 12:39 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I disagree...
Slowey has value so I hate this move.
And money should not be an excuse, not for a team that just spent $4.75M on Matt freaking Capps, or is spending $9M on Pavano, or $5.5M on Blackburn, etc.
I like Slowey and wish it would have worked out
but he doesn’t have value. Not at the moment.
That doesn't work if you're trying to win ballgames
It’s also more likely to happen if the team isn’t paying a bunch of money.
Trading Slowey for a bag of balls would be an insult . . .
to the bag of balls
by That'sWhatSheSaid on Dec 6, 2011 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
I think they tried to some extent.
He’s been on the market for… what… a half year?
Like it or not (and I don't), Slowey was done here
Whatever happened between Slowey and Mgmt. last season, that bridge was burned. I think it happened a year and a half ago when he got pulled while throwing a no-no against Oakland, and just never got better.
I think TR is being his methodical, non-flashy self. He’s made a few no-brainer, low-risk/low-to-moderate reward deals (Caroll, Doumit). He’s tidied up a mess that wasn’t resolvable (Slowey). He’s made a hard calculation of the value of a top-dollar closer to a team with this many holes.
I’ll be a lot happier if by mid-next season we’re hearing the truth about players’ health (as opposed to what we’ve been spoon-fed the past year or two re. M&M), if the MOTY handles player issues in the clubhouse rather than in the newspapers, and if we start to move out mediocre pitchers who are getting paid more on years of service than on decent pitching, and replacing them with guys who might have some upside (re., all of our starters).
Then we’ll know if TR was the magic ingredient we’ve been missing. We’ll see.
I was hoping he could turn it around in MN this year.
I sincerely wish you the best of luck with the Rockies, Kevin.
Skol!
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
#OccupyTwinkieTown
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Dec 6, 2011 1:01 PM EST reply actions
+1
I would have liked to see him turn things around here, but I’ll watch how he does in Colorado. Good luck Slowey!
"Nobody wants to hear me rap." - Joe Mauer
"The more toppings a man has on his pizza, I believe the more manly he is." - Herman Cain
by what_would_gil_thorp_do on Dec 6, 2011 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
The problem here is one of valuation
The Twins decided that it was better to pay Matt Capps $4.75 million for what will likely be 70 roughly average relief innings than to pay Slowey what, $2.5-$3.0 million to compete for a starting spot? Sure, he might pitch 70 innings too, but that’s absolutely what you are getting from Capps, whereas Slowey could give you 150+ innings.
Look, we aren’t talking about committing big money to a guy who hasn’t been durable and has had his struggles. We are talking about marginal money for a guy with peripheral numbers that indicate he could give you quality innings.
But Ryan prefers a world in which his roster is a) more expensive and includes Capps but not Slowey instead of a world where his roster is b) cheaper and has Slowey and not Capps?
I have trouble understanding the logic or sense of that position.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
It's not like they are substitutes
So I’m not sure why you are comparing him.
We signed a relatively inexpensive closer. The reason he’s relatively inexpensive is he isn’t that good. (And shaved $14 mil off of our closer bill from last year)
Meanwhile, we traded a relatively inexpensive start who also isn’t that good. We chose to give up his upside in favor of upside of whatever it is we are getting back, and relieved what had be a morale/personnel issue in the process.
They just aren’t related decisions.
I disagree that they aren't related decisions
They are. It’s part of roster management. In my view, due to these 2 moves, they are more expensive and worse than if they had made the opposite decisions. It shows a weakness in understanding the value of ballplayers.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 6, 2011 2:11 PM EST up reply actions
That's only true if you correctly value Capps and Slowey
IMO, at least in the case of Slowey, you are dead wrong
by That'sWhatSheSaid on Dec 6, 2011 2:16 PM EST up reply actions
I've been wrong before
But it’s my view that Slowey’s upside is worth $2.5 million and a shot at a rotation spot. Another way to look at it: if we assume that health permitting, Pavano, Baker, Liriano, and Blackburn (shiver) are going to be in the opening day rotation, who are the 5th and 6th starters on the team, and what is the cost of those players? Either they will be pre-arb guys making near minimum (Hendriks?), or they will sign a veteran starter for presumably more money.
On the assumption that it isn’t going to be one of the top ($12 million+) guys on the market, I would much prefer committing one of those spots to Slowey at his price.
I won’t pretend that I couldn’t be wrong. Slowey might never be what he was. He might have regressed permanently due to injury or some other reason. But I think there are enough reasons to believe that his problems aren’t permanent to make a relatively low investment in him a smart play, especially given the (lack of) other options.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 6, 2011 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
I've been right before . . .
but not often.
I just like speaking in absolutes on the internet
by That'sWhatSheSaid on Dec 6, 2011 2:38 PM EST up reply actions
Again
You’re comparing values to the wrong thing. You get it right for Slowey below. The question is who will take his role, and is he cheaper or more expensive. If it’s Swarzak or Hendricks, he’s cheaper, but maybe not better. If it’s Buehrle (unlikely), he’s a lot more expensive but he’s also a lot better.
Same for Capps. For whatever reason (probably named Hawkins), this organization believes that you need a guy with experience to close. If you accept that (questionable) stipulation, then Capps is a relatively inexpensive option as just about any other closer you sign would cost more. And you have to add to that the fact that we don’t really have anyone in the bullpen who seems like he could step in even if you don’t care about closing experience.
But
Here’s the thing: had they made the opposite decision on these 2 guys, they would have had 1 less reliever, but 1 more starter, and had an extra couple of million dollars. I don’t buy that closers need experience, no, and finding 70 Capps-quality innings for less than they are paying Capps seems like a much easier scenario.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 6, 2011 3:07 PM EST up reply actions
agreed...
and agreed they’ll end up with a worse starter for more money. The most likely scenario is us signing a guy like Jeff Francis, who is likely worse than Slowey in 2011, for more than $3M or so. And that makes me sick.
This is all about Gardy, IMO, again. He can’t manage “smart” guys or guys with talent that are different from him (who was never talented). So he forces them out. Garza/Hardy/Lohse/Slowey, etc.
Capps is better
That’s the answer. Capps, even though he’s a relief pitcher, is more valuable than Slowey.
no, he's really not...
or at least is not likely to be over the next year or two. IMO.
How about none of the above?
I would have been happy to see both guys replaced considering how they stunk it up last season. They both had disappointing injury plagued 2011 seasons.
Whatever one thinks of Slowey
I think the real issue is whether or not we have anyone in the minors who will be ready to take a spot in the rotation in the next 16 months. And then another guy a year after that, and another a year after that. If we don’t, and I haven’t seen reason to think we do, then we’ve got far more problems than whether or not we gave up on Slowey too fast. Another 2011-type year from Slowey wouldn’t get it done. A 2008-type year would be nice, but that’s far from a sure thing in my book.
The question is, do we think 3 more years of Blackburn, Baker, Pavano, Liriano and whomever else TR can pick up cheap or maybe somebody who hasn’t claimed the spot yet might step up, is going to get this team where it needs to go? I don’t like those odds. The Twins are unlikely to trade Tolbert, Butera and Revere for Cliff Lee or Justin Verlander.
Upcoming pitchers
It’s a bit thin. Hendriks should be at AAA for a few months but then he’ll be ready. Gibson is out but could be ready the following year. Wimmers is a wild card. Bromberg might be another Swarzak like guy, able to eat some innings but don’t get excited. I don’t think they have any other real prospects at AA or AAA. I could be wrong though.
which is a big part of the reason why just giving away Slowey for nothing...
was such a mistake.
I'd wager
They sign a vet in the next few days.
Jeff Keppinger of the Giants is available...
Anybody have any interest in him? His name starts with a “J” and we don’t have a Jeff yet…
Remember, remember the seventh of November.
Also the Twins made a three year offer to Cuddyer at $25M
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/12/twins-made-three-year-offer-to-cuddyer.html
Have we talked about that yet in this thread? Did I miss it?
Remember, remember the seventh of November.
Right here!
Also, there is apparently good deer hunting nearby.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
#OccupyTwinkieTown
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Dec 6, 2011 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
They just got their "sandwich pick" for Slowey
Knowing Terry Ryan I’m fairly confident the PTBNL is as good as what they could get with the 75th pick in the draft. In this case they get $3.5M and a “pick” to make Slowey go away. I’m cool with that.
Hooray!
Someone who will probably never see the majors then?
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
#OccupyTwinkieTown
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Dec 6, 2011 2:38 PM EST up reply actions
Slowey asked to be traded for a PYPNH
Player You’ve Probably Never Heard of
"Nobody wants to hear me rap." - Joe Mauer
"The more toppings a man has on his pizza, I believe the more manly he is." - Herman Cain
by what_would_gil_thorp_do on Dec 6, 2011 3:50 PM EST reply actions 11 recs
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