Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Win or Lose, Boston Celtics' New Big 3 Era A Success

Are the Twins Out of Payroll Space?

From Kelly Thesier’s latest mailbag on MLB.com:

 

…Smith has acknowledged the team is pretty well extended in terms of its budget.

 

There are two ways to look at this.  Either A) it’s true, or B) it isn’t.  But that’s kind of obvious, isn’t it?  Personally, I don’t think there’s a scenario where the statement actually is true…which means it’s where you go from here that makes it interesting.  I mean, why would Bill Smith say the Twins are done in terms of payroll if it wasn’t true?

 

Answer:  Posturing

 

Of course, there are a lot of ways to interpret that "posturing".  Maybe there’s just nothing left on the free agent market that seems like a good fit.  Or maybe Smith is trying to command baseball’s public perception of the organization for the purposes of leverage in some future trade negotiation.  Or perhaps the front office is simply happy with how things currently sit, and need to put a halt to off-season activity now so that if they do need to add a piece or two during the season they’ll be able to.

 

Payroll, in Major League Baseball, is a very fluid concept.  The Twins often cite it as "a function of revenue", and I have no doubt that it is.  But as the organization has proven time (Orlando Hudson) and time (Brian Fuentes) and time again (Orlando Cabrera), if they are convinced the right piece is there then ownership will allow them to move on it.

 

So, perhaps more accurately, in a certain context it’s actually true.  With an asterisk, "for now* it’s true". 

Comment 60 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

I'm still thinking there are some bargains out there to fill our bench

I am not quite there with this team. I think we can get by with our current BP + minor league arms, but there has to be someone more useful than Tolbert out there in case project Casilla/Nishi doesn’t pan out. I suspect the comment has a lot to do with posturing for potential trades. Can’t hurt, anyway!

by dctwin on Feb 1, 2011 11:40 AM EST reply actions  

I'm guessing we are at our upper limit

But, I’m also guessing they’re leaving a little budget wiggle room for a possible mid-season acquisition for the stretch run.

Like the font you used BTW.

You, sir, are a mouthful.

by Att. Bob Loblaw on Feb 1, 2011 11:47 AM EST reply actions  

to avoid the problem

Copy into a plaintext editor (notepad, f’rexample) first. That’ll strip out all of Word’s stupid formatting tags.

by ravenfly on Feb 1, 2011 12:04 PM EST up reply actions  

not that i have an issue with it

Times new roman is pretty much the Marlon Brando of fonts.

by ravenfly on Feb 1, 2011 12:05 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

You, sir, are a mouthful.

by Att. Bob Loblaw on Feb 1, 2011 1:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Last year they said this

And they still signed O-Hud. Jimmy P will release the funds if it provides a clear upgrade at a position. Lopez, e.g.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Feb 1, 2011 12:06 PM EST reply actions  

Here's how I see it

Every year, the Pohlads set a limit on payroll. However, this limit operates as a soft cap, because the Pohlad family has repeatedly stated that if the front office came to them with a player that they wanted and could improve the team, but would push them over the cap, the Pohlads would approve the addition to the payroll. That’s exactly what happened with Orlando Hudson last year. Just when it appeared the Twins didn’t want to add to the payroll any more, they added O-Dog for $5 million. So while the Pohlads get a lot of crap because their public perception is that they’re a bunch of tight-asses, the truth is that they are also baseball fans and if they are shown that a certain player can improve the roster, they’ll approve it.

You may argue back that this should mean that the Twins could sign big-name players because those guys are guaranteed to help the roster, but the Twins have tended to avoid large free agent contracts (anything above 4 years). Also, signing one great player to fill one hole means that all your other holes have to be filled with cheaper options. Therefore, the options would have been sign one great player and fill the other holes with average to below-average players, or fill all holes with roughly average players. Making shrewd moves is how the Twins have had so much success over the past decade.

Finally, I just know someone’s going to bring up the supposed profit that Target Field is bringing in. As far as I know, none of us has ever seen an actual amount, it’s always been estimates. I say that unless you can provide and cite an actual amount of profit the Twins made in 2010, then don’t argue that the payroll should be approaching $130 million this season.

by Andrew Bryz-Gornia on Feb 1, 2011 12:09 PM EST reply actions  

The Hudson example

is exactly where my mind went when I read the quote from the mailbag.

The Twins are who they are because they make measured strikes. They don’t always work, but the upside is they never do something that will cripple them, either.

by Jesse on Feb 1, 2011 12:11 PM EST up reply actions  

They know they can make it up later

If they fall out of contention they’ll deal a couple veterans (Kubel, Cuddyer) to get the salary relief back. This was part of the reason for the Luis Castillo trade.

by DJL44 on Feb 1, 2011 12:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Totally Agree

The Pohlads aren’t cheep—they are smart. You don’t pour millions or your personal dollars into a business that (because of the market size) will never be able to make that amount of money back in profit.

John Bonnes once summed this up pretty excellently:

Here’s 3 rules I live by. You might want to try them.

1) I don’t tell George Clooney how to dress.
2) I don’t tell Wilt Chamberlain how to meet women.
3) I don’t tell the Pohlad’s how to manage their money.

"It happened in the moment, and it happened." - Carlos Gomez

by myjah on Feb 1, 2011 2:20 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

What would happen

If I organized a boycott of the Twins until the Pohlads were forced to fire Gardy? For example I set up the site fire gardy.com.

by Jessy S on Feb 1, 2011 2:52 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I would be endlessly entertained!

I can’t wait to see you guys picketing out there!

"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
"Gardy MOY. Feel great disturbance in Force. As if millions of Internet cranks cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced." -BatGirl

by less cowbell, more 'neau on Feb 1, 2011 4:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Love to see the Fire Gary signs

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Feb 1, 2011 4:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, but as fans we have a direct conflict of interest with the Pohlads when it comes to their money.

We can’t tell them how to spend, but we can tell them: “Spend more money you cheap jerks, or we fans will spend less.” So yeah, we can tell them how to spend their money.

by Luke in MN on Feb 1, 2011 3:45 PM EST up reply actions  

"pretty well extended in terms of its budget"

It’s sort of meaningless. It means, “We’re mostly done, unless there’s some great way to spend money still lying on the table.”

Which there isn’t for the most part. Maybe a cheap bullpen guy. I sort of doubt they’ll bring in a guy for the bench since they like to work in their own pieces there. The only way they’ll end up making big increases is if they pull off some big trade, which seems very unlikely. It’s sort of an odd time of the year to trade, since no one wants to be seen as “selling” as they gear up for the season.

by Luke in MN on Feb 1, 2011 12:19 PM EST reply actions  

Precisely

FanGraphs had a “Bad Contract White Elephant” post Oct. 2009 and I piggybacked it on my blog, because I noticed that the Twins didn’t really have any “bad contracts.” Perhaps the only one that would have qualified is Michael Cuddyer, but he only had 2 years and $19 million left at the time. Joe Nathan was another suggestion (note this post was prior to his TJ surgery) but many closers are overpaid.

To quote my post…

Granted, they’ve made some bad signings, no doubt (Ramon Ortiz, Sidney Ponson, Livan Hernandez, Mike Lamb, Luis Ayala, etc.) but none of them can really be called a "bad contract." All of these contracts have been of the 1 year or 2 year variety, and all have been a couple million dollars or less per year, sans Hernandez.

The Twins have done a great job avoiding crippling contracts, though it’s very possible that Mauer’s may have that effect if he becomes chronically injured.

by Andrew Bryz-Gornia on Feb 1, 2011 12:23 PM EST reply actions  

Oops

This was supposed to be a response to Jesse’s “The Hudson example” comment.

by Andrew Bryz-Gornia on Feb 1, 2011 12:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I figured.

Do I have a link to your blog?

by Jesse on Feb 1, 2011 12:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Let's see

I don’t know, do you?

checks TT homepage

No you don’t. Off The Mark @ http://weareoffthemark.wordpress.com

by Andrew Bryz-Gornia on Feb 2, 2011 3:06 AM EST up reply actions  

Hmm...

Clearly I don’t post here often enough, otherwise I would have known that two asterisks around text would bold that text.

by Andrew Bryz-Gornia on Feb 2, 2011 3:06 AM EST up reply actions  

The Way I See it

Any bad contract is one where the player either underperforns, causes trouble for the team, or gets arrested. I don’t think injuries count because they happen. For example, Brett Favre got hit with injuries last year, but it really isn’t his fault because he is still a very good player. Sidney Rice isn’t at fault because the team should have scheduled his surgery for right after the 09 NFC Championship game if it was known he was injured. As for Jay Cutler, the media and fans unfairly attacked him for his injury during this year’s NFC Championship. That is the same as Michael Cuddyer’s injury last season.

by Jessy S on Feb 1, 2011 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know full details on the Sidney Rice situation

but I think I remember that he went to the doctors and the doctors told him it will heal with rest. That is a common answer from doctors. Surgery is usually the last resort, and if they believe rest will help, they always choose that first.

And if I’m remembering right, that was the diagnosis for Rice too. The team just goes with what the doctors say. A lot of the times, the rest does not help (Rice, Neshek…I’m sure there are more).

Baseball reminds us of all that once was good, and that could be again.-Terence Mann/James Earl Jones in FoD

by Twins33 on Feb 1, 2011 6:21 PM EST up reply actions  

You are actually wrong on this...

The first doctor told Rice to get the surgery and he didn’t want to. he then proceeded to wait so long that he screwed the team over by missing over half the season.

And to Jessy S’s comment on Rice….maybe you don’t get this but the team does not dictate to the player when/if they have surgery.

by Galkuris on Feb 2, 2011 1:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Like I said, I didn't know for sure

I don’t pay attention to a Vikings team with Brett Favre on it.

It’s just what I heard at one point, didn’t know if it was true. Assumed it could have been because it happens to a lot of athletes (Neshek is one).

Baseball reminds us of all that once was good, and that could be again.-Terence Mann/James Earl Jones in FoD

by Twins33 on Feb 2, 2011 2:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I partially disagree

Yes, injuries happen, but I think that should be included when considering if a player has a bad contract. If Mauer is hurt 40 games a year, then it becomes harder to justify paying him $23 million per year. Plus, injuries typically affect on-field performance if the player attempts to play through them.

by Andrew Bryz-Gornia on Feb 2, 2011 3:08 AM EST up reply actions  

I think they're done for now

I don’t see anything available that makes me jump up and down. Not that I’m happy with Tolbert, but nothing out there makes me feel any better either. I don’t see any “Orlando Hudson” guys out there. I mean, the only guy I’d want is Vlad, but there’s definitely no room for that.

I’ve read a few things about payroll. One, Smith needed approval from the Pohlad’s to re-sign Pavano. This one I only read once. It was a day or so after Pavs signed. It was either in the StarTrib or Pioneer Press (leaning toward the Trib), but no other article I’ve seen has even repeated it, so maybe that wasn’t the case.

Two, Pavano said he was concerned about the payroll and the departure of some players before he re-signed. He said he made sure that the team would add pieces at the deadline if they needed it. This came from his mouth, so I’m guessing it’s true. And I believe it. If there’s a piece out there, they’ve proven for the last two years that they’ll go and get it.

Three, when offering arbitration, one thing they considered was the fact that all of the guys could accept which they believed would put the payroll at 120-125. It was either Smith or another FO guy who said it (also read it in the StarTrib at the time). They said they could handle that type of payroll, if they couldn’t have, they wouldn’t have offered.

So, what’s the payroll looking like right now without Frankie and Delmon? 105 (i have no clue)? Anyway, they probably push the payroll another 10 or so. So, let’s say 115.

If they still think they can support 125, then they might have 10 on the table to spend. I don’t think they’ll actually spend that though. Just because they have it, they’re not going to spend it. Like I said, I don’t think there really is any piece out there right now that’s worth getting. I don’t see any “Orlando Hudson’s” on the market. Keep the money for the mid-season addition(s) that will likely happen. I think they’re done for now.

Baseball reminds us of all that once was good, and that could be again.-Terence Mann/James Earl Jones in FoD

by Twins33 on Feb 1, 2011 12:24 PM EST reply actions  

+1

Agreed. Could use some middle INF utility guy with some what of a bat, although there aren’t many. Is Felipe Lopez still available?

"FTYITAWAB" -less cowbell, more 'neau

by d-mac on Feb 1, 2011 1:14 PM EST up reply actions  

He's still available

And I can’t even think of any teams who have even been linked to him.

Baseball reminds us of all that once was good, and that could be again.-Terence Mann/James Earl Jones in FoD

by Twins33 on Feb 1, 2011 2:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Payroll

It’s at around $113 million if you estimate $5.45 million for Young and $4.3 million for Liriano (midpoints of arbitration figures exchanged by player and team).

by Andrew Bryz-Gornia on Feb 2, 2011 3:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Twins seem out of payroll space to me

Per Star Tribune, when Punto was not re-signed:

With a projected Opening Day payroll of $113 million, they insist they have reached their limit. Insiders say Carl Pavano’s contract actually pushed them over budget, requiring special approval from CEO Jim Pohlad.

It makes sense—the payroll is currently sitting at about where most estimated it would be for 2011. I don’t see why fans cling to this notion that the Twins have some secret stockpile of cash hidden somewhere…

A year or two ago, no one would be complaining about this off season. I think a lot of fans have gotten a little spoiled now and have unrealistic expectations for the Twins spending. A bigger payroll doesn’t automatically mean the Twins can go out a sign every player on their wish-list.

Of course, maybe Jim would approve some other signing, if it were a bargain or something. But I don’t really think we’ll see more signings.

"It happened in the moment, and it happened." - Carlos Gomez

by myjah on Feb 1, 2011 2:12 PM EST reply actions  

Oh,, and it's worth noting...

The fact the Twins aren’t even willing to sign Punto for under $1 million for one year… makes me think they are done spending.

"It happened in the moment, and it happened." - Carlos Gomez

by myjah on Feb 1, 2011 2:13 PM EST up reply actions  

That, and they

can get similar production from Tolbert at the league minimum.

by Jesse on Feb 1, 2011 2:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, that's probably more accurate

I just have mental images of the Twins FO talking about whether spending a few more hundred thousand is worth avoiding Gardy’s temper tantrum.

"It happened in the moment, and it happened." - Carlos Gomez

by myjah on Feb 1, 2011 2:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I think the FO is fed up with Punto

Just like we are.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Feb 1, 2011 4:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe.

Punto has value as a player. He did some things well. But that value certainly wasn’t worth $5 million, and I don’t think the FO thought he was worth $1.5 million for a season either (including the buyout, of course). His inconsistency isn’t worth it.

Maybe they were tired of his inconsistency.

by Jesse on Feb 1, 2011 6:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Lots of things to be tired or wary of

Inconsistency. Injuries. Setting a bad example on fundamentals. Getting the starting SS job on first sign of trouble from Casilla….

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Feb 1, 2011 6:32 PM EST up reply actions  

"Setting a bad example on fundamentals."

I disagree on that. For every bad play Punto had, he had at least 5 other spectacular ones.

"It happened in the moment, and it happened." - Carlos Gomez

by myjah on Feb 1, 2011 7:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Sliding into first, backhanding everything, getting picked off or trapped off...

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Feb 1, 2011 8:37 PM EST up reply actions  

But how often did these things happen?

People point out every time Punto messed up, and ignore the many more times he made fantastic plays. That’s not really fair.

"It happened in the moment, and it happened." - Carlos Gomez

by myjah on Feb 2, 2011 10:34 AM EST up reply actions  

He's very athletic

His fundamentals suck. Can’t bunt, misses signs. He does turn a good pivot.

by DJL44 on Feb 1, 2011 8:48 PM EST up reply actions  

But I love Punto!

I never had much of a problem with him. He was good.

"It happened in the moment, and it happened." - Carlos Gomez

by myjah on Feb 1, 2011 7:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Or, to rephrase...
So, perhaps more accurately, in a certain context it’s actually true.

So, what they told us was true… from a certain point of view.

"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

by BeefMaster on Feb 1, 2011 2:19 PM EST reply actions  

A certain point of view?

You will find many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view.

by Jesse on Feb 1, 2011 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought you were making a philosophical point as old as Aristotle

As a Wittgenstein scholar, I found the comment rather obvious. The Star Wars allusion was lost on me.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Feb 1, 2011 6:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, I most certainly did

When making a Star Wars reference, you can’t just try. Do. Or do not. There is no try.

"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

by BeefMaster on Feb 2, 2011 10:04 AM EST up reply actions  

Two things:

1. The 40 is kind of cluttered right now, so even if they aren’t out of room it seems unlikely they’ll be making any moves until late in spring training at the earliest, unless it’s a trade of someone on the 40.

2. They undoubtedly have a separate budget item for midseason acquisitions.

by timprov on Feb 1, 2011 6:07 PM EST reply actions  

In regards to point one, I think that if they wanted to find someone, they would The 40-man wouldn’t stop them, because there are still players they could drop. It’s a hassle, but for the right guy, if they had the cash they’d do it.

In regards to point two, I’d think you’re probably right. Maybe not necessarily a seperate budget item, but either leaving themselves enough breathing room to make that kind of a move, or else not having a problem with approaching ownership to approve taking on extra payroll.

by Jesse on Feb 1, 2011 6:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

TT is an SB Nation blog of, by and for the fans. We strive to be the best Minnesota Twins blog by providing quality content and analysis, as well as daily news and notes on the team. We hope you'll make Twinkie Town your home for all things Twins!

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Jedi2_small
BBMP6 Challenge™ Scores 5/13-5/24
Tc_at_tf_small
Hope in Beloit?

Recent FanPosts

Snickers_small
The Kind Of Debates That Baseball Is Made For
Puckett_small
A Night in The Cell
2011-06-18_22
Rochester Celebrates 10 years of affiliation by immortalizing Dustin Martin on a Magnet
Small
I get tired of trade or acquisition discussions. . .
Snickers_small
The Next Move
Small
(Cross-post from my blog) Twins. Red Wings. It's a revolving door.
Waterpolo1956_small
Free Anthony Slama!
Snickers_small
"We Gotta Start Trading 'Em...All Of 'Em!"
Small
AAA players who could help the Twins

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Twinkie Town On Twitter

Yahoo_full_count

Editor-In-Chief

Twinkietown_small Jesse

Senior Writer

Small Bobomojo

Hrbek_small Jon Marthaler

The_jet_small cmathewson

Gladdentwins_small Adam Peterson

Hosken_powell_autograph_small RandBall's Stu

Mustache_small Andrew Bryz-Gornia

Twins_woo_small Steve Adams

W00t__2__small brandonwarne52

Special Contributor

Small roger13

Untitled_small Trevour

Chairmanmauer_small fischean

Metargetfieldjose_small myjah

Small Brady Eyestone