Trading Francisco Liriano, Or How the Twins Could Get Brian Cashman Fired
There has been major talk about trading Francisco Liriano this week thanks to Joe C. of the Star Tribune. Since this post is all about trying to get Brian Cashman fired, keep in mind that the Yankees need to do something. They have been bested in pretty much every move they attempted this season when it comes to the big names that didn't wear Yankee Pinstripes last season. For starters, Cliff Lee made his way back to Philadelphia while Carl Crawford will try to make Fenway's Green Monster feel his pain. Even Jim Thome refused the big bucks that come with becoming an Yankee and resigned with the Twins. The only good news for the Yankees is that most of the core four is still together, and Rivera has his heir apparent. Even if George Steinbrenner were alive and well today, I don't think he would fire Cashman for missing a few Free Agents. After the jump, the trade that will give him his walking papers.
What the Yankees would give Us
- Joba Chamberlain: He would headline the group of players headed to Minnesota. The main reason for his departure from New York is because of control issues as a starter. As a result, manager Joe Girardi demoted him to the bullpen much like what happened with Nick Blackburn. His salary is $1.4 million for 2011 with Arb. beginning in 2012 putting him under team control through 2014. This compares with the reported $4.3 million that Liriano is getting this season.
- Brett Gardner: The Yankees Outfielder is a left-handed bat that has progressed very well throughout his career since joining in 2008 and is under team control through 2015. His batting average is at .268 for his career with a 4.3 WAR. and his salary is at $453K for 2011 compared with $10.5 million for Michael Cuddyer.
- Eduardo Nunez: He is a second baseman that is a pretty good right handed batter as well. The only problem, he is in the same position as Wilson Ramos last season. In Ramos case, it was Joe Mauer while Eduardo's case it is Robinson Cano with Derek Jeter also being a factor since Nunez can play both second and short.
What We Would Give the Yankees
- Francisco Liriano: The most definite part of this trade. Despite his injuries, Liriano has been a good pitcher for the Twins. (I withhold the term great because there have been pitchers that have performed better such as Johan Santana.) In my mind, Liriano needs better command of his fastball and change-up and that should make him a better pitcher.
- Michael Cuddyer: Yes Cuddyer is due $10.5 Million this season (all salaries are from baseballreference.com). And Yes, you the reader might think the Twins would just give up and go on a spring training fire sale given the players that we are dropping. However, Michael is affordable for the Yankees they are under the $200 million threshold on their player payroll. Though not the headline player, he would offer another bat for the Yankees and would be back in his natural position in right field at Yankee Stadium. This is also given that it would allow Chris Parmalee to make the trip north for our season opener at Toronto.
- Alexi Casilla, Matt Tolbert, or a player to be named later: It depends, but I would vote for sending Matt Tolbert to the Yankees unless the Yankees can option somebody else making Alexi Casilla the player sent to New York.
Analysis
For the most part, I am blaming the New York media for giving the Twins something to talk about during the last few days before spring training. The reason for this, though, is the fact that the Yankees need better pitching since a certain future hall-of-famer retired. I don't blame them. They were lusting after Joe Mauer before he signed his extension. It would almost been possible that Johan Santana would have been an Yankee in 2009 if he not have been traded to the Mets by the Twins in 2008. And this past off season, there was no shortage of hope from the New York media that Crawford and Lee would be in pinstripes next week.
So, what is my position on this trade. Since the Twins are dealing from a position of strength, I would do it. For starters it forces the Yankees to give up some players that are currently under team control until the middle of the decade. Plus it forces them to take two players that will likely not be in Yankee pinstripes in 2012 and another that is a "Gardy player."
Yes the Twins could wait until mid-season to see how Liriano is doing pitching wise. By then it could be too late if he is injured or has regressed to the pitcher he was in 2009, or is injured with a relapse of Tommy John. Even if we do wait, and Liriano has a great year at the all-star break, there is a good chance that he could be involved in a trade if the Twins were out of contention though that might not happen given the team's recent history despite the fact we could be out of the gate 0-7 given we have Toronto and the Yankees as our first opponents on the road. However, we could also be 5-7 following our first 12 games since our first home stand is against Oakland and Kansas City.
So if you are Bill Smith, what would it be? Do we trade Francisco Liriano to the Yankees now, or wait and see? Vote in the poll and leave a comment below.
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Icing on the cake
I like the idea, but I don’t think that would seal the deal. I think they need to include Jesus Montero to really kill Cashman’s career. Also that would replace the bat we lose in Cuddyer. TOO many lefties, Lee Sabathia are gonna kill us in the postseason next year.
Joe Butt
Thank goodness
The Yankees have one lefty. Liriano would replace Rettitte.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
I don't get it
I don’t think you understand player value. I don’t think the Twins would give up Liriano alone for those three players. I was thinking Liriano for Joba, Gardner, Sanchez and Banuelos. Yeah, that’s a lot. But the Twins are in the driver’s seat. If the Yankees want him, they must overpay. Otherwise, the Twins can just watch his value grow through the summer and wait for the Yankees to meet the steep price. Throwing in Cuddyer and Casilla is not necessary.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
by cmathewson on Feb 13, 2011 1:58 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
God, maybe it is the wine but we 100% agree
Joba/Gardner/Nunez is a horrid package. Cashman would get an extension if he got that package. I think any Yankee package has to start with Banuelos. Then you add two of Joba/Nova/Gardner to help the major league team now to make up for the lose of Liriano and one more lower prospect. The Twins are not the Royals, they won 94 games last year, they can win the central next year. Banuelos for the future and two of those three to help the team now. I would go for a Banuelos, Joba, and Gardner trade. Joba to help when we lose Nathan/Capps and Gardner to help with our god-awful outfield D.
Banuelos was on my list too
However so was Jesus Montero and the Yankees will not give up either of the players for Liriano. Brett Gardner, Joba Chamberlain, and Eduardo Nunez are the likely players given up for Liriano due to their position on the rosters. For example, Joba is in Joe Girardi’s doghouse due to control issues, and the sight of Joba in another uniform is enough to get Cashman fired, but that possibility is increased when you throw in Cuddyer’s contract compared with Gardner’s contract and the fact that both Cuddyer and Liriano could walk away from the Yankees after this season. Finally, this trade gives our front office the chance to get a high priced player for the stretch run in late July.
Well, I just don't think the Twins would trade Liriano without a top prospect included
No Banuelos, no deal.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
I see what you mean
But word will leak out that Liriano is available, and could help in the pitching rich NL East. Maybe the Braves or Marlins want to play.
That's why you hang onto him until the bidding gets brisk
I would much rather trade him to the NL. That said, the Yankees are in the best position. They have prospects to burn. Ownership only judges on results on the field. If the Yankees are in second at the break, they’ll up the ante.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Why wouldn't the Yankees give up either of them for Liriano?
They offered packages built around Montero for Soria and Cliff Lee last year so why not Liriano? Also, there is no reason for the Twins to even trade Liriano so they would have to be blown away to do it. Also, once again the Yankees would only be one of the many teams competing for a 27 year old front of a rotation pitcher signed for $4.3M. If they cant man up the Twins would have tons of suitor to pick from.
I am going by what Al Damlo wrote
And He wrote that Liriano wasn’t worth too much to the Yankees. On the other hand, Cliff Lee is a top of the line ace and I am sure that Seattle would have wanted Brett Gardner as well. The 2010 New York Yankees were an offensively challenged team as well. We are forgetting that Derek Jeter regressed last season and there was concern throughout the lineup.
The Beauty about the Twins is that Montero isn’t going to be traded for Liriano and that we don’t need him.
Cliff Lee>Liriano
But 2 years of Liriano>2 months of Cliff Lee. Don’t forget that the Yankees offered up Montero for Soria who is a closer. As I say this I don’t see any reason why the Twins would want Montero.
The Yankees
Were hot on the trail for Cliff Lee during this past offseason. Lee would have gotten a hefty raise and that is in addition to his current salary.
Um
The Yankees led the majors in runs scored and by 41 runs over team #2. So, nope, not offensively challenged.
Plus, were you saying “as well,” including the Twins? Because they were 6th in the majors.
I was comparing the 2009 Yankees with the 2010 Yankees
That is the difference.
Why would you go by what Al Damlo wrote?
He isn’t an authority on the Yankees. Or Liriano’s value.
I don't agree with Al Damlo
At least in terms of Liriano’s value. To me, Francisco Liriano is a top 20 to 25 pitcher which puts him in the range of MLB Aces. Still those aces have something to be desired and that is to pitch consistently. Liriano’s only good years have been in years there has been an Olympic Winter Games.
Yankees...
I don’t think I have written an article on the Yankees yet. But Liriano would look great with CC and Hughes. Never going to happen though.
On a general note
When I first read the Twins were thinking about trading Liriano I was pretty pissed but the more I think about it I’m ok with it. If Liriano is not actually in the Twins future now is the time to trade him. For the right package of course. Lots of people are focusing on the Yankees, but TONS of teams would be bidding on a front of the rotation (yes he has injures) who will cost $4.3M.
If the Twins could get two ready now, cheap, players and one high upside, close to the majors, prospect I would be ok with it.
I agree...
I don’t think he will sign long term, so why not get something good for him while he’s still healthy and valuable. He wants too much money, and with his slider, I don’t see his arm lasting past 27 or 28
Remember last year when everyone was complaining that we can't beat the Yankees without an ace?
Why are so many of us now open to trading our best pitcher to the Yankees? Like cmb said, we should be competitive in 2011. It shouldn’t be a rebuilding season. Sending your best pitcher to your biggest playoff rival is not the kind of move you make when you want your team to compete in the short term.
Cashman is much more likely to be fired if he does nothing and the Yankees miss the playoffs due to a weak starting rotation. As it stands, the Red Sox should finish ahead of the Yankees. The Rays could as well. Add Liriano to the Yankees and they are much more likely to make the playoffs.
This was a triumph
I'm making a note here - huge success
by what_would_gil_thorp_do on Feb 13, 2011 8:30 AM EST reply actions
I agree
If they could give up a similar package as that proposed to get a pitcher as good and cheap as Liriano the Twins should make that deal. They need to be bowled over to make a deal. Fair value isn’t nearly good enough. If the Yankees are sending prospects I want Montero, Banuelos and Brackman plus Nunez. Liriano put up a $20M season last year. 1 WAR is worth more to the Yankees than the Twins so Liriano would have an estimated $40M in excess value to the Yankees. I want $50M in excess talent returning.
I have little interest in Joba Chamberlain – the Twins have proven they can develop their own bullpen. I have little interest in Brett Gardner – they have Span and Revere in the organization.
You are forgetting
That even with an ace, we can’t beat the Yankees. That ace was Johan Santana and he managed to win his starts with the Yankees. The problem is that the Yankees got the best of us with other pitchers on the mound, and it is usually them outlasting us. The current formula for outlasting us is to extend the pitch count and foul off as many balls as possible. This leads to us making a costly mistake and we lose.
Not can't, but couldnt
You sound like they cant ever ever ever beat the Yankees.
by twinscrazy_german on Feb 14, 2011 5:35 PM EST up reply actions
Our Problem is a psychological issue
We go into every game with the Yankees and manage to hang with them. However when something bad happens to the Twins, we wilt. It happens every time we have the lead going into the homestretch of a game. We almost always never have this issue with any other ballclub.
Gosh this argument pisses me off...
That even with an ace, we can’t beat the Yankees.
There is a huge difference between CANT and DIDNT. Yes, we didn’t beat the Yankees when we had an ace. The past should have NO significance on any other year we play them.
Yes, we didn't beat the Yankees
And we didn’t have Morneau for either series. As the Yankees age (ahem, Pettitte), it should be easier to beat them, assuming Morneau is healthy.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Didn't have Morneau?
Granted he would have helped us, but Justin Morneau’s presence in the lineup was not that major to say the least. He was in the lineup for a four game set at Yankee Stadium in May of 2009, and the Twins lost all four games.
That's just crazy talk
Morneau was the consensus MVP before the concussion. If you don’t think that makes a difference in a line-up, you don’t understand baseball.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Ifs and buts
Lets stop making excuses and just except it. There is no proof that with Morneau anything different would have happened. We can speculate all we want but we just don’t know. The fact is Morneau WAS OUT and DIDN’T PLAY and we LOST.
I'm talking about this year
What happened is n the past. When someone says we can never beat the Yankees, I say, lets see us try with Morneau in the middle of the line-up. That’s all.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Better Yet
Let’s try it with Ben Revere and Justin Morneau in the lineup. We’ll have our shot with the Yankees at Yankee Stadium the first full week of April. Maybe we will even ruin Opening day at Yankee Stadium (not Likely).
Not really
He was in a dogfight with Josh Hamilton. If Morneau was consensus MVP, it happened before Hamiton got hot.
He was leading in BA/OBP/SLG% at the time he went down. They almost always win MVP.
by Brady Eyestone on Feb 13, 2011 9:26 PM EST up reply actions
very late, but...
Hold the phone! Are you suggesting Jessy S doesn’t understand baseball?!?!?!
by tobynotjason on Feb 17, 2011 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
So, just for funzies, I looked up Morneau’s career numbers against New York Yankees pitchers. .290/.387./.580. To just dismiss him because he was in the lineup in May of 2009 and the Twins got swept is very juvenile.
by Brady Eyestone on Feb 13, 2011 9:19 PM EST up reply actions
The Yankees might not make the playoffs
The Red Sox and Rays both look pretty good. Keep the ace pitcher away from them and there might not be anything to worry about.
But
The past has significance because our playoff record alone is 2-12 vs the Yankees alone. The sad thing is that the Yankees always manage to get things done vs the Twins and we manage to blow it somehow or have the umpires blow it for us. The only game I am giving them is the October 7th, 2009 game at the Yankees because we were coming off a tense extra innings victory in game 163 of the regular season vs Detroit. Game 2, Joe Nathan should have closed out that game and we should have come home with the series split at one game apiece.
If You Really Want To See Cashman Fired
Trade Liriano to ANYONE other than the Yankees. The NY media would crucify him for letting him get away. Deal him to the Phillies, Mets, Tampa, or, the coup d’etat, THE RED SOX…….lol. Imagine the carnage.
but the right pony can be like a friend with benefits...-montanatwinsfan 2/2/11
by carlpavanosmoustache on Feb 13, 2011 2:51 PM EST reply actions
I just don’t understand any of this. Trade our Opening Day SS/2B, Opening Day Starter, and Opening Day right fielder to a team that routinely kicks the shit out of us for a reliever and two players with no power?
Joba....
Would probably be a starter here… He was a very good starter in college and the minors. He said he feels great this year. He wants to start though…. Look at his minor league numbers in 2007, his only year in the minors (at A+, AA, and AAA combined):
9-2, 2.45 ERA, 18 Games, 15 starts, 88.1 IP, 135 K’s, 27 BB’s. 1.008 WHIP…
He’s a stud pitcher. He just doesn’t like New York
Liriano and Casilla
should net us
Gardner, Cervelli, Joba Chamberlin, and either Banuelos or Montero
I called it - Joe Mauer's first career Home-Run at Target Field !!!
"Matt Millen ran Barry Sanders out of town he Drove the Lions into the ground
and now he acts as if he is a know it all NFL analyst" -favre
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Feb 13, 2011 7:17 PM EST reply actions
In some ways, I really like this idea
I voted yes, because I liked the general idea. I didn’t realize how talked about this issue was, so I really would have voted (No, but on the right track).
I like the idea of trading Liriano. I think he’s very highly valued right now. whether he ends up worth that value depends a lot on his injuries, but if the right offer is on the table, I’d take it to get rid of the injury risk.
Bret Gardner would be a GREAT fit as a Twin. Clearing Cuddyer’s salary would be tremendously helpful. Picking up some other young, cheap, quality players would be great.
I’d agree that we should be looking for another top prospect as well. If the Yankees highly value Joba, I wouldn’t demand him in the deal, but Nunez isn’t a stud prospect, so there needs to be a lot more value added from the Yankees side.
I don't see why we would need to cut Cuddyer's salary
The Twin’s FO hasnt said anything about needing to cut more salary and are actually sitting around what most people thought they would be salary wise. You don’t trade your ace and take a lesser package to cut salary and with a team/fan favorite like Cuddy no less. If you trade Liriano you need to get back a TOP flight prospect or young player. Banuelos/Montero would have to head to package with Joba/another cheap major league ready throw in. Joba is currently not worth much. Dude lost his 8th inning roll last year and with the signing of Soriano has lost it this year.
Once again, I know ESPN and the rest of the major media outlets will tell us that the Yankees would be the best target to trade Liriano to, but that is simply not true. We match up ok with them but 20+ teams would be calling to talk about Liriano if he really is up to be traded. We have options.
Heck I would be talking with the Orioles
They looked into Greinke/Garza this off-season, made it clear they wanted pitching, and have made a lot of win now moves. I would love to get a deal around Zach Britton.
Britton....hmm. You have my ear.
And maybe a Manny Machado, too? + one of solid reliever. Twood be sweet.
Yeah right
The Twins are not going to get two top 25 players for Liriano. Look at how much teams have gotten for front of the rotation pitchers the last few years. I would jump for joy for a packge of Britton+Tillman+lower level prospect. Trading one proven font of the rotation for two major league ready now pitchers who have high upsides. With it soundling like the O’s, or at least their fans, have soured on Tillman it could actually happen.
The Cubs gave up a ton for Garza
How many of those top of the rotation starters were only being paid $4M.
They gave up a lot of prospects
But they didn’t give up 2 top 25 in all of baseball prospects. Most of the guys they traded didn’t even crack the top 100 list. Also, the Rays sent prospects backs.
The history of these trades favors two top prospects
Even in the Santana trade, where the Mets were the only suitor vying for the chance to sign him a year prior to free agency (seriously depressed value), they gave up two top 50 prospects overall and four prospects in their top seven.
Liriano has more trade value than Santana did. A close comparison is somewhere between Grienke and Garza.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Marcum got one prospect
Garza got 6 but they Rays also traded 2 prospect on their side. I like Liriano a lot, don’t think the Twins should trade him unless they get blown away, but someone of you are way over-valueing him. Britton+Machado+? Not going to happen. Montero+Ban+Sanchez+? Not going to happen.
Then the trade's not going to happen
If those prospects are too much (and they might be) then Liriano should stay put.
It's not about overvaluing
It’s about getting more than he’s worth. As has already been stated to death, the Twins have little incentive to trade him, meaning teams should theoretically have to overpay to get him.
It is overvaluing if your asking for the Moon
Overpaying for Liriano is a must, the Twins can and will compete this year, but expecting a godly return after seeing what starting pitchers have gone for is stupid. Big difference between overpaying and overvaluing to the point of insanity.
Really?
I’m beginning to think that most of the people on this board know how to value players less than Bill Smith, and thus far, he has not impressed.
The Twins window is now… Trading away 2 productive team members and one unkown for a reliever who failed as a starter, Carlos Gomez 2.0, and a decent MI prospect isn’t going to get Cashman fired. It’s going to make Smith look even dumber. This would make us worse now and in the forseable future as well as add a logjam at a postition that we are presently deep in our farm system. The Twin’s best bet with Liriano is to keep him, let him pitch out his contract if an extension isn’t an option, and take the picks when he leaves… otherwise, we’d need to be absolutely blown away by someone in order to trade him. Mauer is in his prime. So is Morneau. We have very nice complementary pieces throughout the lineup. You don’t waste that star power.
Cashman would get canned if he offered Montero, Manuelos, Joba ,and Nunez for Liriano, and to be honest, that’s probably the only offer he could give that would make me pull the trigger… and the Yankees won’t do it. They know better.
by diehardtwinsfan on Feb 14, 2011 1:58 PM EST reply actions
Agreed
- Although I would imagine all of us know how to value players less than Bill Smith. If that wasn’t the case, we would be scouting professionally. I understand that we may differ in our opinions of some players, that doesn’t make any of us more qualified.
If the Twins do trade Liriano they Yankees would have to give up a ton to do so. Just like the Johan trade, the Twins took a lesser offer to keep him out of the Yankees or Red Sox hands. My belief is that was a concious decision. What good is getting prospects if you continually get beat by the guy you traded? Thus Hoey for Johan with rental players in between.
And
This is why most teams don’t prefer to trade within their own division. Again using Johan Santana as an example, everybody in the NL East is worried about the Phillies fab four. As a result, the Braves want to boost their rotation by getting a veteran, but they are likely not going to get Johan Santana from a Mets team that is in a rebuilding period in 2011. If Francisco Liriano is truly on the market, it would be best for Atlanta to inquire about him with the Twins and maybe work out a deal that way. There could even be a three team deal that sends Johan back to the Twins and prospects such as Aaron Hicks the Mets way while the Braves get Liriano. We might even get Chipper Jones in the deal.
Are you on crack?
We could way overpay Santana on a return from injury while adding Chipper Jones who while a great baseball career is damn near 40. We’d give up one of our top 2 prospects and our best starter for 2 overpaid veterans on the backend of their careers? Wow, I’m sorry but that’s just ridiculous.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
I think it's a joke
Give up Liriano and Hicks and get Santana and Jones?!? ROTFL! I would rather have Valencia than Jones at this juncture, and he’s like $a gazillion cheaper with upside. Ditto for Liriano vs. Santana, not to mention the fact that we don’t know when or even if Santana will return to form.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
I would like to offer:
Liriano, Slowey, and Kubel
for:
Chamberlain, Phil Hughes, and Brett Gardner…
We need pitching, Hughes is better than Slowey, Gardner is better than Kubel, and Liriano is better than Chamberlain. We could set up a rotation of good #2-#3 pitchers 1-5
Pavano
Hughes
Duensing
Chamberlain
Baker
Blackburn
And we would have improved defense with Gardner and Span in LF and CF and Delmon in RF with Thome at DH… I’d be willing to throw in Max Keplar as well if it’s needed
You are on crack.
I am not trading Liriano alone for that package.
...formerly known as 33MorneauMVP
Joba isn't a starter.
People talk about Slowey’s dropoff the 2nd time through an order. Joba was never able to do it. Frankly, I don’t want him at all. But he’s a reliever, that’s it.
I’m underwhelmed by this trade. Even if we want to give up Cuddyer, which I’m not against (flip Young to RF, put Span back in left, and Revere in CF), I don’t see the value in what we’d be getting.
If Liriano is trade bait. And I’m not buying this as of yet, I’d be seeing the return including a bona fide starter/or starting prospect and a top level position prospect in return as a minimum. If we’re throwing Cuddy out too, then starter for starter.
by Shawn Gillogly on Feb 16, 2011 12:28 AM EST reply actions
I agree about Joba
Not only did he fail as a starter in the Bigs but he also failed as a setup man. He lost his 8th inning duties last year to Wood and with the signing of Soriano he has lost them this year. If the Twins did make a trade with the Yankees I wouldn’t mind Joba back though as a high-ceiling BP arm. His value should be just that, a BP arm with ceiling not a starter, and sure has heck not the main piece in the trade.
I really dislike this article.
IMO the trade was not fair value for Liriano. But the most annoying thing is that some of you are okay with Liriano being traded! Why would you want to trade our most talented pitcher for Joba (headcase) and two guys who haven’t done anything in the majors?
"When among evil companions, try to fit in." - Wild Bill Donovan

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