Improving "Total Run Accounting": Zero Based Expected Runs
When I first introduced my "Total Run Accounting" analysis a few years ago (details are here and here), the concept of "expected runs" (ExR) formed the basis of the entire run accounting. As at bats, or individual actions (such as advancing from first to third, grounding out to the right side to advance a runner from second to third, etc.) increase or decrease a team's "expected" ability to score runs, players are assigned runs, positive or negative based on their individual contributions.
The ExR I used for this analysis assumed, based on a detailed analysis of 2008 play by play data, that at the start of an inning, a team would "expect" to score an average of 0.52 runs in that inning. While this may have been accurate relative to league average, one aspect never quite sat right with me (not to mention a few Twinkie Town comments, a lot of smart fans out there): calculating ExR based on league average produces game by game ExR numbers based on league average offensive performance rather than total runs scored. What do I mean by this? Based on an average of 0.52 runs scored per inning, a team would "expect" to score a total of 4.68 runs over nine innings. This means that if a team ends up scoring four runs in a game, the sum total of all ExR, player by player, will be -0.68 runs, resulting in a total of four runs scored.
Not only was this difficult to explain, I don't think it was the most effective method of accounting for runs. The basic issue is whether when an inning starts, a team is truly in a position to score any runs. Without anyone on base, the only way for a team to score a run is by hitting a home run. And a solo home run is easy to account for, simply one run for the batter. But until a team gets someone on base, have they really put themselves in a position to score runs?
After the jump, I'll put forward an alternative method of ExR accounting, where a team can "expect" to score zero runs until a runner reaches base. I'm putting this out there for comment, I would really like to know what the community thinks of this approach. To help explain how this works, I'll dig into Sunday's A's - Twins game, looking specifically at Jim Thome, Danny Valencia and the bottom of the eighth inning in particular.
"Zero Based" Expected Runs
As I noted above, coming up with a method where a teams "expected" runs scored equals zero until a runner reaches base was a bit of a challenge. At this point, I chose to assign ExR for any bases empty situation (zero, one or two outs) at zero runs scored. With this assumption, the ExR matrix changes a bit compared to my previous calculations:
| Outs | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | ExR - Zero Based | ExR - Baseline |
| 0 | N | N | N | 0.00 | 0.52 |
| 0 | Y | N | N | 0.76 | 0.94 |
| 0 | N | Y | N | 0.97 | 1.19 |
| 0 | Y | Y | N | 1.27 | 1.54 |
| 0 | N | N | Y | 1.18 | 1.46 |
| 0 | Y | N | Y | 1.75 | 1.93 |
| 0 | N | Y | Y | 1.64 | 2.03 |
| 0 | Y | Y | Y | 2.23 | 2.39 |
| 1 | N | N | N | 0.00 | 0.28 |
| 1 | Y | N | N | 0.48 | 0.59 |
| 1 | N | Y | N | 0.62 | 0.72 |
| 1 | Y | Y | N | 0.82 | 0.96 |
| 1 | N | N | Y | 0.93 | 1.05 |
| 1 | Y | N | Y | 1.15 | 1.33 |
| 1 | N | Y | Y | 1.28 | 1.42 |
| 1 | Y | Y | Y | 1.47 | 1.50 |
| 2 | N | N | N | 0.00 | 0.11 |
| 2 | Y | N | N | 0.23 | 0.28 |
| 2 | N | Y | N | 0.29 | 0.35 |
| 2 | Y | Y | N | 0.42 | 0.47 |
| 2 | N | N | Y | 0.37 | 0.40 |
| 2 | Y | N | Y | 0.54 | 0.61 |
| 2 | N | Y | Y | 0.62 | 0.66 |
| 2 | Y | Y | Y | 0.72 | 0.76 |
As the above table shows, in every situation, the ExR is reduced when we start at zero rather than 0.52 runs per inning. This is not surprising, as it reduces each teams ExR over an entire game from 4.68 to 0.0 runs. The real question is, what effect does this have on run accounting for a given situation? Immediately, one sees that the leadoff batter becomes more important using a "zero based" method. In the previous accounting, if a leadoff hitter reaches base on a walk or a single, the batter is assigned 0.94 - 0.52 = 0.42 runs for the at bat. When we start at zero runs, a leadoff walk is assigned 0.76 - 0.00 = 0.76 runs for a walk or a single. So a leadoff batter's performance becomes more important using this method. The question is whether a leadoff batter reaching first base is truly worth three quarters of a run to the team rather than 0.42 runs. I suspect the "zero based" approach will be more accurate, but we will see if this is the case as we examine the play by play data.
On the other side, I understand that this "zero based" method has a disadvantage. If a leadoff hitter fails to reach base, in the previous method this meant a 0.28 - 0.52 = (0.24) ExR allocation to the batter. When we start with zero runs, when the leadoff batter fails to reach base, the batter is assigned 0.0- 0.0 = 0.0 runs since the bases remain empty. Which method is more accurate? It all comes down to whether the leadoff batter prevented his team from scoring runs (by failing to reach base) or simply kept the team at a zero runs scored level. Based on my description above, I believe the initial runner reaching base has a more positive value than previously accounted for.
10 April 2011: Oakland Athletics versus Minnesota Twins
To better illustrate how this ExR allocation works, let's take a look at the Twins game played on Sunday 10 April. The Twins lost 5-3 to the A's, so how does the ExR allocation look from a batter by batter basis:
| Pos | Player | BAT | RUN | TOTAL |
| 1. | Denard Span | 0.18 | 0.34 | 0.52 |
| 2. | Joe Mauer | 0.60 | 0.03 | 0.63 |
| 3. | Justin Morneau | 0.83 | 0.00 | 0.83 |
| 4. | Jim Thome | 0.35 | 0.00 | 0.35 |
| 5. | Delmon Young | 0.76 | 0.00 | 0.76 |
| 6. | Jason Kubel | 0.69 | -0.20 | 0.49 |
| 7. | Michael Cuddyer | -0.56 | 0.00 | -0.56 |
| 8. | Danny Valencia | 1.22 | -0.82 | 0.40 |
| 9. | Alexi Casilla | -0.43 | 0.00 | -0.43 |
| Total |
3.65 | -0.65 | 3.00 |
As the table above shows, the Twins scored a total of 3 runs on Sunday. In order to better understand each player's run allocation, we need to go into a bit more detail for a couple players.
Jim Thome
At first glance, one would consider Sunday's game to be a solid performance from Jim Thome. In the eighth inning, Thome hit a two run home run to bring the Twins back into the game, cutting the deficit to 5-3. But while the home run may have contributed two runs to the Twins overall total, we also need to consider Thome's other, negative, contributions to the Twins offense:
- First Inning: Groundout with two outs and Justin Morneau on first base. Looking at the ExR table above, the Twins were in a position to score 0.23 runs. By ending the inning, Thome is assigned -0.23 runs to bring the total back to zero.
- Fourth Inning: After a leadoff single by Morneau (+0.76 ExR), Thome grounds into a double play to clear the bases. Because the Twins are back in a zero ExR situation, Thome is assigned -0.76 runs for the double play.
- Sixth Inning: After a two out double by Morneau (+0.29 ExR), Thome strikes out to end the inning. He is assigned -0.29 runs.
- Eighth Inning: With two outs and Mauer on third base (+0.37 ExR), Thome mashes a two run home run. He is assigned 2.0 - 0.37 = +1.63 runs for the home run.
So in four at bats, Thome has contributed a total of 1.63 - 0.23 - 0.76 - 0.29 = 0.35 runs. Making three outs, each clearing the bases, nearly canceled out his two run home run.
Danny Valencia's Baserunning Gaffe
At the plate, Danny Valencia had a good day, with a leadoff single in the third inning (+0.76 runs), and a one out single with Kubel on second in the fifth inning (+0.69 runs). A seventh inning strikeout with Delmon Young on first (-0.23 runs) was Valencia's only negative contribution...at the plate. But on the basepaths, Valencia helped run the Twins out of an opportunity in the fifth inning. With one out and Kubel on second base after a ground rule double, Valencia singled to right field. I don't know if it was simply a brain freeze, or if Valencia was attempting to draw a throw from the right fielder to allow Kubel to score (a really bad strategy, IMO, because if a team thinks it can throw a runner out at home they'll go for it, regardless of whether another runner "draws" a throw), but first baseman Daric Barton cut off the throw to nail Valencia advancing to second. In my ExR calculations, this takes the Twins from a one out first and third situation (+1.15 ExR) to a two out runner on third situation (+0.37 ExR). Valencia is assigned -0.78 runs for the out on the base paths.
Eighth Inning Rally
Since it was the inning where all of the Twins runs were scored, let's take a look at the Twins eighth inning rally, from an ExR standpoint.
- Leading off, Alexi Casilla ground out. He is assigned 0.0 ExR, no change as the bases remain empty.
- One out, bases empty, Denard Span singles. He is assigned +0.48 runs for putting the Twins into a better run scoring situation.
- One out, runner on first, Joe Mauer doubles, advancing Span to third. With the double, Span is "expected" to reach third base, resulting in a one out, second and third situation (ExR = +1.28), so Mauer is assigned +0.8 runs for "standard batting" (using a term from my previous "little things" articles. But with the fly ball double to right field, there is (by my calculations) a 53% chance that Span scores on the play. If the run scores, the Twins end up in a one out, runner on second (ExR = +0.62) situation, so Mauer is assigned 53% of 1.0 (run scoring) + 0.62 (final ExR) - 1.28 (previous ExR) = +0.17 runs for "directional hitting". Then, because Span stayed on third base rather than scoring, he is assigned -0.17 runs, returning us to runners on second and third, with one out.
- One out, runners on second and third. Justin Morneau grounds out, Span scores from third. Morneau is assigned 0.62 (ExR with two outs, runners on second and third) - 1.28 (initial ExR) = -0.66 runs "standard batting" for the groundout. On a ground ball out to the first baseman, a runner on third base has a 24% chance of scoring. So, long story short, Morneau is assigned an additional +0.2 runs for "directional" batting, Span gets +0.51 runs for scoring from third, and Mauer gets +0.03 runs for advancing to third.
- Two outs, runner on third. Jim Thome homers to center field. As described above, he is assigned +1.63 runs.
- Two outs, bases empty. Delmon Young flies out, 0.0 runs assigned, end of inning.
In summary, I'm putting this update out there, as I hope to use this "zero based" expected runs method as the basis for most of my future "Total Run Accounting" analysis. I believe this will result in run totals that are easier to understand (adds up to actual runs scored), and the ExR accounting will be more reflective of a team's actual run scoring opportunities. But I want to know what the community thinks, as I suspect there are ways this could be improved.
52 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
I'm not good at this complicated math.
But here’s one thing I find interesting, and maybe you can explain why:
Your zero-based run expectancy goes down with runners on second and third and nobody out, when compared to runners on the corners and nobody out. Obviously the baseline run expectancy goes up.
Bonus points challenge: if you can explain it to me like I’m Commander Riker and you’re Geordi or Data or annoying Wesley Crusher, and use some over-simplified analogy to help my primate brain deal with it, that would be awesome.
I was curious why runs went down in all situations
Wouldn’t decreasing run expectation with nobody on base increase the run expectation when someone reaches? This all has to sum to runs scored, correct?
well i understand that you can not go below 0.0 ExR
so when Casilla led off the 8th inning, and grounded out the total outcome was still at 0.0 ExR just like it had been before Casilla strolled up to the plate this makes sense.
What I want to know is what if Span’s single immediately following the Casilla AB, instead came as a Leadoff hit to begin the 8th inning. Would Span be credited with more than 0.48 ExR ?
he would have to be correct?
It is also interesting how Thome is credited with 1.63 RUNS because that is essentially half of the amount of the three run homer in which some credit goes to Span, Mauer and even Morneau…
Nishi to Alexi = Double Play
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Apr 12, 2011 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
You are correct, these are definitely context based metrics
Making an out with no one on base doesn’t remove any runs, but making an out with someone on base typically does. And if Span leads off an inning with a single, he would be assigned +0.76 runs using this method, as opposed to +0.41 runs using the previous method, which assumed 0.52 ExR at the start of each inning.
by Adam Peterson on Apr 12, 2011 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, it all sums to runs scored
but the way I calculated ExR using a zero baseline brought the overall total for all situations down a bit. The way I totaled the runs for each situation, once the bases were emptied (double play, home run, etc), I cleared out all the previous situations in the inning. For example, if a leadoff hitter reaches first and the second batter homers, my algorithm assigns the “Y-N-N / 0 out” situation with one run scored. I didn’t include the home run (independent of the situation), nor did I include any runs scored after the bases were empty, because it was also independent of the situation being considered. This was definitely different from the way I calculated ExR before.
by Adam Peterson on Apr 12, 2011 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
How do you assign defensive mistakes
If there is a runner at 3rd and the pitcher throws a wild pitch, does the hitter get the credit or the baserunner?
I have a category called "opponents fielding"
that accounts for errors, but it also is linked to the hitter, same as standard batting, directional batting. For the numbers I provided above, I believe I remove the opponents fielding from the assignment.
In the case of wild pitches and passed balls, I struggled with how to treat these. In the end, because there is some running skill involved, I believe I assigned runs to the base runner (s), starting with the lead runner.
by Adam Peterson on Apr 12, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I suspect it's just a quirk in the 2010 data
I saw the same thing putting the tables together, believe it’s a sample size issue, nothing more. It looks like there were about three times as many instances of first and third as there were second and third, with nobody out.
by Adam Peterson on Apr 12, 2011 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Do I get extra points?
I’m going to take a good look at this for the 2008 and 2009 seasons, maybe it’s as simple as the 2010 ExR being skewed by a few 8 and 9 run innings. Or there could be some more fundamental reason…like the added threat of the runner on first stealing second, pitching from the stretch. But I doubt it would produce a 0.11 run difference…
by Adam Peterson on Apr 12, 2011 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Adam, how about this:
the 2nd and 3rd situation is more likely to “clear” totally with both runners scoring on a base hit. The 1st and 3rd situation, while in fact less productive, will be more likely to result in “chaining” runner-on-base situations such that by the time the bases have cleared, on average, more runs have scored.
Which would probably just highlight that this probably isn’t as useful a system as yoru original system, in the sense that it doesn’t accurately do what it’s trying to do due to the arbitrary zero-out.
by tobynotjason on Apr 13, 2011 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions
That's probably right
“Clearing” versus “chaining”. Obviously a two run single with runners on second and third still leaves someone on first. But that new runner is more easily erased caught stealing or grounding into a double play.
by Adam Peterson on Apr 13, 2011 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions
The value of leading off
I like the thought, although I do agree that there’s a dilemma between whether a guy leading off the inning with an out is costing his team runs or mere failing to get his team runs. Interestingly, while this change increases the value of most leadoff hits, it leaves the value of a leadoff homer unchanged, reducing its relative value greatly. In a way, it provides support for the “homer kills a rally” crowd – a leadoff homer, in the new accounting, is worth less than a leadoff triple and barely more than a leadoff double. I’d be interested in seeing how accurate that actually is.
Quick question: Do the zero-based baselines you’re using account for the possibility of a bases-empty situation later in the inning and zero out the value of that as well? I’m wondering if that’s inflating the bases-empty hits’ relative values – for example, Denard Span leads off with a single, and Mauer homers. Is Span inadvertently getting credit for a portion of the previous system’s 0.52 expected runs from the new bases-empty/no-out situation?
Basically, I’m having a hard time accepting the value of the leadoff double and triple, especially, as some of the implications make no sense. For example, if Span leads off with a triple and Mauer follows with a sac fly, your new system claims that Mauer’s actually costing the team runs – the expected run value goes from 1.18 to 1.0. If Mauer homers, it’s worth .18 runs less than if he’d homered to lead off the inning, and less than when Morneau follows with a solo homer. The idea of a homer as being worth less than a run or an RBI holding negative value doesn’t make much sense to me.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
Update
I noticed when looking at the numbers again that an out-producing RBI following a leadoff triple actually was worth -0.18 runs (1.0 + 0.28 – 1.46) before, too, so the new system doesn’t change that. The homer objection remains, albeit a bit less dramatically than I’d thought – before, a homer with a man on third and no outs was worth 1.06 (2 + 0.52 – 1.46), whereas now it’s worth only 0.82 (2 – 1.18).
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
Very interesting - leadoff triple versus homer
It sure seems that a leadoff homer should be worth more runs than a leadoff triple. Quite a non-intuitive result in the data…it’s probably illustrative of the fact that after a leadoff triple, the runner scores at some point later in the inning the vast majority of the time. But the triple also puts the team in a position to score more runs later, as infielders are brought in for the out at home?
by Adam Peterson on Apr 12, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Interesting theory
It could certainly be related to defensive positioning. It’s pretty well-established that batters do better with runners on base, which could be related to both defensive positioning and reduced effectiveness of the pitcher. Still, though, it seems really counterintuitive that the effect is not only enough to outweigh the value of a guaranteed run, but to outweigh it by nearly 20%.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
See my post below.
I think the problem is that every base-out situation with runners contains the possibility for a home run in its RE, whereas the empty base situation does not contain said possibility. I don’t think it’s possible to have it both ways in the same system and have accurate RE tables.
by tobynotjason on Apr 12, 2011 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I removed home runs from consideration
I was conscious of this possibility, so I removed home runs. In the case of a Span leadoff single and Mauer homer, the “runner on first, zero out” situation ends up as an instance of one, instead of two counted runs…which ultimately contributes toward the average. And if Mauer grounds into a double play, that same situation ends up as an instance of zero runs. Regardless of what happens later in the inning after the bases have been cleared.
I suspect this is a result of the arbitrary assignment of the leadoff situation as zero ExR, as well as the triple opening to the possibility of a multiple run inning at the same time a bases clearing home run resets the “clock”.
by Adam Peterson on Apr 12, 2011 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Except not really a multiple run complete half-inning...
but rather a multiple run until-the-bases-are-cleared-portion of the inning, if I’m understanding you correctly?
Really, run expectation under this system is “Expected runs scored by runners already on base until such time as there are no runners on base or the inning ends, which comes first,” correct?
by tobynotjason on Apr 12, 2011 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Bases empty situation later in the inning
Yes, my baselines account for this. And it zeroes out those situations as well, plus it “clears” out all of the situations already queued from the inning, assigning the number of runs scored.
So in your Span-Mauer scenario, the Span “runner on first, zero out” situation would end up with an expected runs total of one, as I don’t consider any future runs scored after the bases empty, nor do I consider the run from the home run.
by Adam Peterson on Apr 12, 2011 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Accounting using the opposition instead of league average
Wouldn’t the compromise be to use expected runs based on the opposing team and pitcher RA rather than the league RA?
That would definitely be interesting
not quite sure how I’d go about that…
by Adam Peterson on Apr 12, 2011 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
It makes sense
Otherwise you’re penalizing a team that doesn’t score 4.5 runs against Cliff Lee and giving extra credit to the team that runs the score up on Phil Humber
Oh, I agree it makes sense
but I’m not sure what it solves. I’m attempting to account for runs here, and I think this would produce weird some season-long results using a changing baseline.
by Adam Peterson on Apr 12, 2011 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Can you look at standard deviations?
You’re using averages, what is the standard deviation on those averages?
First thoughts
First of all, I don’t necessarily see the problem with the other system. You’re comparing to a baseline and so your number is going to be an amount that the player deviates from that average.
Second, there’s a fundamental problem with the proposed system (btw – where did you get the numbers from? The ones from the original are based off of data collected over the course of a season, where did your new ones come from?) With the proposed values the most obvious problems that I see are that making an out with nobody on doesn’t return a negative value (although making an out in any other situation does). So far as I’m concerned – that’s a serious issue. To say that a player making an out does anything but hurt his team is fundamentally untrue.
My thoughts exactly.
An 0-4 with returns a value of 0 if the bases were empty every at bat.
Philosophical discussion
which is what I wanted to get from writing this article. The player would end up with zero runs, as would all hitters on a team on the wrong end of a perfect game. Think of OBP…failing to reach a base hurts a team as well. But there aren’t negative components. We just know someone with an OBP of zero is very bad.
It’s a matter of what we want to capture relative to “hurting” a team…
by Adam Peterson on Apr 12, 2011 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I calculated the numbers using 2010 play by play data
and the baseline numbers were from 2008, I believe. So that, in addition to the algorithm changes I’ve described above, probably helped to reduce the ExR over many situations.
by Adam Peterson on Apr 12, 2011 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
That didn't answer the question
That’s the data set you used, but doesn’t get to the how. What meaning do these numbers have, what’s your methodology for calculating them? The original baseline numbers revolve around the number of runs we expect a team to score on average from the point in an inning when they’re in the specified situation. This is clearly NOT the methodology that you got to these numbers from, so I ask again, how did you arrive at these numbers?
I've explained in a few comments already
Using the 2010 play by play data, I counted the runs scored after reaching a given situation, up to the point where the bases clear, or the inning ends. And for a home run, I do not consider the run scored by the batter who hit the home run.
If I continued after the bases cleared, I would get positive ExR associated with bases empty situations. I could disregard and still arbitrarily assign 0.0 ExR for the one and two out bases empty situations, but this would have the effect of increasing ExR for all of the other situations…which could exacerbate the other issues that have been discussed here.
by Adam Peterson on Apr 13, 2011 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Ahh Danny Valencia's base running gaffe
is primary reason why he is -0.82 in RUN
Also he had the highest number 1.22 in BAT category because of his 2 hits…. (however, Morneau had 3 hits -1 LOB)
So my first initial thought looking at this, and the chart is that Jim Thome’s numbers are to low and Delmon’s too high
however, that doesn’t neccesarily mean much.
Thome of course, had the big three run homer, however that was a bout all he contibuted offensively. Delmon Young however left 0 LOB on the box score where as Thome had 3 LOB… wow
on secnond thought the more i look at this, I believe the more i am understanding it
Nishi to Alexi = Double Play
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Apr 12, 2011 1:08 PM EDT reply actions
Thome hit a two run homer
Morneau had scored Span with a groundout beforehand.
And I think Delmon benefited from his at bats (and outs) being with the bases empty.
by Adam Peterson on Apr 12, 2011 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
thank you
clarification is always great
Nishi to Alexi = Double Play
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Apr 13, 2011 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm tripped up on the distinction you're trying to make with WPA (win probability added)
I tend to think of that when I read the article. In that system, and it seems to make sense to me, you certainly lose points when you make an out to lead off an inning. There’s always some chance you’ll score runs when an inning leads off, and if you lead off with an out, that chance is reduced.
Primary difference between this and WPA
WPA’s context is in the entire game, while TRA’s context is restricted to the inning itself. Adam’s numbers don’t care if it’s an 8-0 game in the second or a 0-0 game in the ninth, as long as the runner/out situation is the same – they merely detail how much the player contributes to scoring runs. With WPA, a leadoff single for the team that’s ahead is worth virtually nothing in the 8-0 game and worth a ton in the 0-0 game, while TRA has them equivalent. Basically, it’s removing the idea of “clutch” in a whole-game sense and redirecting it to innings – guys can get “clutch” credit in TRA by driving in runs with two outs, when fewer runs are expected, while in WPA that “clutch” credit is dependent on the game situation.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
Yes, thank you.
Yet then my question is: Why isn’t this like WPA without the game-situation context? (and looking it up, I see Fangraphs publishes exactly this sort of stat along with WPA; it’s called RE24—“runs above average based on the 24 base/out states”)
The primary difference between this and RE24
would probably be how ExR is used to generate the metric. I don’t know details about RE24, but I break each play down into smaller pieces to allow me to allocate the runs to a base runner, hitter, etc. I suspect (but do not know) RE24 simply looks at begin and end states for each at bat, assigning everything to the batter.
by Adam Peterson on Apr 12, 2011 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks, that makes sense, and I guess I should have known that.
Although I would tend to still think that you should lose points in your system for making lead-off outs.
Interesting
I don’t think you should “lose points” for making leadoff outs though
When you’re talking inning by inning vs 27 outs total then maybe it is more substantial considering the 3 outs is all you get to score runs and isolate an inning vs isolating a game (WPA)
Nishi to Alexi = Double Play
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Apr 13, 2011 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions
You're reducing your team's chance to score either way
If you strike out with a runner on first and no outs, your team is less likely to score a run that inning. If you strike out with the bases empty and no outs, your team is less likely to score a run that inning.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
Too many advanced stats!
I’m still stuck on ERA!
Minnesota Wild 2011: Don't even bother, unless you like booing.
Doesn't seem right to me.
Making an out is a bad thing, period, people on base or no. You lead off and make an out, you cost your team runs.
I guess I don’t see the problem this is trying to solves. What is wrong with, as you put it, “calculating ExR based on league average [to] produce… game by game ExR numbers based on league average offensive performance rather than total runs scored”? The funny jumps in numbers (triples, 2-3 0 out vs. 1-3 0 out, etc.) are surely an artifact of forcing something to be the case (0 runs expected with the bases empty) that is not, in fact, the case. It’s EXPECTATION, after all. It includes all possible outcomes henceforth.
Adam, I remain very interested in learning what an average LHB’s ball in play (base hits, groundouts) is worth directionally based on the chances it creates for runner advancement versus the average RHB’s ball in play of the same generic type (i.e. base hit, groundout, etc.). Seems like a quantification demonstrating that a LHB is more valuable than a RHB with equivalent “basic” situational production (basic production, not including direction) would be GOLD BABY!
I'm working on the LHB analysis
should have something in a week or two.
by Adam Peterson on Apr 12, 2011 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Not a "problem" per se
just a desire to get to more of a “counting” style metric here. I plan to investigate the “funny” jumps in ExR, could very well be artifacts of my algorithm to calculate ExR from the play by play data. But the other aspects, especially lack of negative run allocation for outs with the bases empty, leave me feeling this may be a square peg / round hole situation.
by Adam Peterson on Apr 12, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
OK. When you put it that way - "counting style metric" -
I can see how it could have a lot of appeal to fans of traditional counting-up metrics like RBIs. I’m just not sure it’s possible to design a metric to do what you’re trying to get this one to do, because making outs ACTUALLY DOES cost runs. It’s a basic sabr insight, and I think trying to work around it in pursuit of a “pure” counting upwards style metric may be what’s causing the discrepancies in your RE tables.
Specifically, look at the lead-off triple/solo home run issue: it seems like the problem is rooted in the fact that the zero-based RE for the no outs, man on 3rd situation (like all non-bases empty base-out situations in your zero-based tables) INCLUDES a possible future home run, right?
So the guy who hits said follow up home run doesn’t get full credit for it, since the possibility was already accounted for in the previous guy’s base hit/walk/HBP/whatever. But the solo home run hitter does get full credit (just as he does per RE24 or regular TRA), even though the guy before him may well have created the possibility for him to do hit a solo run, as well (by emptying the bases with a home run, double play, out or whatever).
That is: the zero-based RE for no outs, nobody on is defined as zero and thus contains no possibility of a home run. A guy who hits ANY home run is not credited with creating the potential for the next guy(s) to also hit a home run (as against RE24 where the possible runs for the next guy would be .54 or .52 or whatever and include the chance that he and subsequent hitters might hit solo home runs), but the guy who hits a single/double/triple is so credited. So a guy hits a home run with a guy on third and only gets credited with .82 runs versus 1 run for a solo home run because, effectively, the tripler’s RE-added included the possibility of a home run hit by subsequent batters. This would apply right across the board – every zero based base-outs situation save for bases-empty contains partial credit for every subsequent home run.
This seems like it could be the root of the the 1st/3rd v. 2nd/3rd discrepancy, too, although it hurts my brain to think about it. Let’s see… with 1st/3rd, the pitcher goes after the hitter more hoping for the double play and is more prone to a home run than a pitcher throwing in the 2nd/3rd situation. Credit for the marginal difference in home run chance is given to the guy hitting the single (or whatever) creating the 1st and 3rd situation vs. the doubler. This is so per this system because of the greater artificial dropoff in RE created by emptying the bases. Or something. Maybe?
I dunno. Bottom line: the problem with the tables and the accuracy lies somewhere in home runs, the bases empty situation they create and the fact that their possibility in alternately accounted for and not accounted for.
by tobynotjason on Apr 12, 2011 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
See my post above - none of the ExR includes home runs
but you have a very good point about the home run with zero out and a runner on third…because the situation has a calculated ExR above 1.0, returning to the zero baseline means the batter hitting the home run is credited with less than one run.
This would occur if the ExR table has any situation where ExR (situation) is greater than the number of runners on base. At least it does with a zero baseline ExR table…
by Adam Peterson on Apr 12, 2011 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions
^tobynotjason
I mean not to quantify sabr and other places like fangraphs and what not into all one overlining constant. Outs hurt teams chances to score runs ALL the time , very true…
however obviously
Just throwing this out there, there ARE such things as productive outs, especially Sac Flies those are often essential…
Games now days are shortend so much with the dominant late inning relievers coming in for 7th 8th and 9th innings.
So I guess what I’m asking is how exactly do you weigh what outs discredit a certain figure in certain scenerios that could otherwise be a detriment in the determining factor for RE
Nishi to Alexi = Double Play
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Apr 13, 2011 12:16 AM EDT reply actions
By "making an out is a bad thing, period," I meant:
as against not making an out in the same situation. You’d rather get a hit than a sac fly, right? Any of these situational counting metrics are going to credit the out maker for moving runners up/scoring them, and given what they’re trying to measure, that’s perfectly OK.
by tobynotjason on Apr 13, 2011 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
Adam’s numbers already give credit for “productive outs” – they’re worth less than hits and walks, obviously, but stuff like moving a runner from second to third while making the inning’s first out blunts the negative effect of the out somewhat.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

by 





























