State of the Twins: Jason Kubel's Injury, Francisco Liriano to the DL, Anthony Slama, and the Bullpen
by Jesse on May 30, 2011 5:42 PM EDT
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It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather we should thank God that such men lived.
- G.S. Patton -
Just a momentary reminder of what today is. Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.
There's already been a lot of news following this afternoon's loss to the Tigers, so I wanted to wrap it all up here since none of the items would give me enough for an individual post. We'll touch on a couple of injuries and the bullpen. Oh, and an update on the umpires blowing the call today and not accepting responsibility. We'll hit that first, actually.
Wrong Call
I'll push two Tweets from Joe C. together:
3B ump Gary Darling said he had fan interference on guy in orange shirt and umps felt Peralta would have scored. Twins thought it should have been called a ground-rule double, and if it was fan interference, they felt Peralta wouldn't have scored.
Of course Darling's interpretation of events just isn't accurate. Either it's a ground-rule double or it's not, and if it's not the ball is dead. And it really wasn't even close here: Peralta was, at most, three steps around second base. And it's not like he's Austin Jackson. Peralta could have tried to score, but I very much doubt he would have made it.
Umpires make mistakes. They're human. And until baseball finds a way to work in replays or a call to an official review booth, nothing will change that. I don't blame them for making mistakes. I blame them for being able to see and review the evidence after the game, and still refusing to accept accountability. If you're following Joe on Twitter, you'll also now see that the umpire saw the second interference (guy in orange shirt) reach onto the field of play. Which, of course, wouldn't even matter if he did because he didn't touch the ball after it bounced off him (or, perhaps, off his kid).
But, one more time: it's the baseball gods. I'm running with that the rest of the year.
Jason Kubel
Kubel is having a boot fitted, and will be re-evaluated tomorrow. Hopefully he just misses a couple of games, but if this becomes something even moderately serious I'm sure we'll see him on the disabled list. Which would precipitate the return of Ben Revere, who hit his first home run of the season today for Rochester.
Our best hitter now hurt, too? Baseball gods.
Francisco Liriano Down
As expected, Liriano is hitting the disabled list after reporting pain during his bullpen session. Baseball gods?
Baseball gods.
It means that Anthony Swarzak will continue to start in Liriano's spot in the rotation, which means we'll see him go on Thursday. I still want to go back and look at Swarzak's start. Hopefully I can get to that this week.
Anthony Slama Up
I think a few of us have been waiting for this to happen for some time. Slama has a 3.70 ERA in 24.1 innings for the Red Wings this year, having struck out 24 while walking 11 and allowing just 19 hits. He has nothing left to prove in the minors, and the Twins could really use a shot in the collective arm of the bullpen.
If you're wondering, and I wouldn't blame you, your current Twins bullpen is: Matt Capps, Jose Mijares, Alex Burnett, Phil Dumatrait, Jim Hoey, Chuck James, and Slama.
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Swarzak
If Swarzak struggles Gibson may get his chance.
Eric Hacker is on the 40-man roster.
The Twins could give him a start or 2. Or maybe Kevin Slowey comes back soon.
Hacker needs a heave-ho.
Whenever Slowey is healthy again, if there’s a spot in the rotation I’m happy to give it to him and see what happens. If Liriano gets shut down and Pavano gets dealt, this could easily be the rotation at the end of the year:
Baker
Duensing
Blackburn
Slowey
Gibson
Where do you see him going?
Just out of curiosity do I ask.
And not to say I’ve jumped on some bandwagon after his start, I just was curious as to how others feel he plays in over the course of the season.
I just expect him to get knocked around more often than not.
He’ll stick around as long as he’s effective, but he’s just been way too hittable. Not just in MLB, but in the minors. Until he proves that he can be successful for an extended period of time, I consider him a replacement-level pitcher at his best.
So ultimately I expect that he’ll wind up back in Rochester. He has value in that he’s a guy who is good enough to fill in from time to time, and those guys are great when they have options and are under team control, but there just isn’t much upside.
Pitchers..
I don’t have a lot of confidence in the following, nor do most people.
Alex Burnett, Phil Dumatrait, Jim Hoey
What they are on the roster for still is questionable..
Well
To their credit, they were all in the game today and pitched pretty well. It is Gary Darling that is currently public enemy number one in Twins Territory. He basically decided the game for Detroit and I believe that umpires shouldn’t decide the game unless they are forced to do so. As a result, Peralta should have been at third and I would have made this call because the game was tied at the time and Peralta wasn’t anywhere near third at the time of the play. If Peralta was on third, the call would have been different and I would have allowed the run to score because he would have scored anyway if there was no interference.
I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew
Interference was the wrong call in the first place
A simple ground rule double removes all ambiguity. 2 bases. No umpire judgment call required.
Fans clearly got hold of the ball on that play
Therefore it was fan interference. Our beef is that Gary Darling made the wrong call in allowing Peralta to score. In baseball a Ground rule Double means that the batter and any baserunner on the field would be advanced two bases. Ground Rule Double rules apply though the ruling was fan interference. This means that Peralta shouldn’t have been allowed to score. As a result Peralta should have been put at third and the game should have been tied.
We are both right. There was fan interference and ground rule double rules apply in this case. Gary Darling had no right to advance Peralta home and the game should resume in the bottom of the 8th with a tied score at five and two out and runners on second and third, and it will likely happen during our August trip to Detroit or later this week if we can get a hearing or ruling on the issue tomorrow or before gametime Wednesday.
I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew
The Twins meet the Oregon Trail
Casilla will get carried off by an eagle next.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
"Wow!!!!! Epic collapse unfolding!!!" -Danny Valencia
by less cowbell, more 'neau on May 30, 2011 6:06 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
AKA
Joe Mauer drowned due to weak legs.
I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew
by Jessy S on May 31, 2011 12:53 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Should have paid to take the ferry
Always take the ferry!
"Nobody wants to hear me rap." - Joe Mauer
"METEOR" - JIM THOME
by what_would_gil_thorp_do on May 31, 2011 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Smith was budgeting as though he was a farmer
He needs to realize that he’s now a banker and can spring for ferry rides and extra wagon wheels.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
Oregon Trail?!?
Everyone needs to see this.
Sorry if you’ve already seen it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHps2SecuDk
I need a clever or funny signature, please send me suggestions.
by #8 guy on May 31, 2011 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Dumatrait pitched well
He looks like he wants to stay. Hoey pitches like he doesn’t think he belongs and is just trying to fool everyone for as long as possible.
Losing Kubel sucks
He needs to be healthy so he can be dealt.
My goodness...
will the injuries ever end? This is ridiculous!
"Danny Valencia is a fricking stud! Hide your daughters!"
-Denard Span
Joe "The Arm" Mauer
I just read this in the game notes from today: Minnesota C Joe Mauer, out since April 12 because of weakness and soreness in his legs and a beat-up shoulder, is now able to throw from home to second.
Wow, Joe can now throw the ball completely to secondbase from home plate. Why do I find this disconcerting? Was he not able to throw to second? Where did the beat-up shoulder thing come from? Next we’re going to hear that he can run all the way to firstbase under his own power. What in heck did we really buy for all those millions?
Good News: Dusty “Incendiary Man” Hughes has been sent down.
Bad News: Jim “Captain Napalm” Hoey is still up.
You know its getting bad when even the umpires think you should lose.
His legs could have effected his shoulder.
I’m a catcher so I know that if your leg is screwed up, it screws up your whole mechanics and makes you hurt yourself by doing stuff like that. One season I had just healed from a knee injury from basketball in time for softball but I wasn’t quite back to usual leg strength. I couldn’t figure out why my knee hurt less than my shoulder until I noticed I was favoring my sore knee which caused me to throw in a different way which caused shoulder pain.
That’s just my experience, I’m not sure about Joe’s. Plus, leg strength effects throwing accuracy and even how far the ball can travel. That’s why if you step when you throw, you can throw farther than if you don’t step (or something like that… I was half listening when my coach was saying something about that in practice…)
"There are three things in my life which I really love: God, my family, and baseball. The only problem—once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit." -Al Gallagher
by twinsgirl197 on May 30, 2011 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Not using your legs will screw up your arm
A powerful throw utilizes the same muscles that a gymnast uses to throw a hard cartwheel. That’s how Tim Lincecum (gymnast as a kid) gets his enormous velocity without injuring his shoulder or elbow. He throws an abbreviated cartwheel, then folds over and lets his right hand whip through to his left knee. Without the horsepower from that right leg, followed by the hard torque of his torso (cartwheel motion) he simply could not throw the ball that fast without injuring his arm.
Lincecum bringing gymnastics technique to pitching is the equivalent of skateboarders bringing their tricks to surfing. Both things revolutionized the sport. Not being able to use your legs in a throw almost guarantees that you will injure your arm, as you will compensate by torquing harder with your elbow and shoulder.
Thanks for the info
It’s good to hear from someone with experience, even if it’s not precisely the same experience.
TwinkieTown (and to an extent much of the Twins blogosphere) thrives on hard data, but the numbers don’t really provide much insight into injuries and recovery times. Personal experience can be very useful in these situations.
by dwintheiser on May 30, 2011 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
We need those experts though they might be members of the opposite sex. You have to understand that the catcher throws the ball about as often as the pitcher. That is another reason why the Twins are preaching Pitch to contact.
I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew
No problem
I’m happy to help with anything catching related :)
"There are three things in my life which I really love: God, my family, and baseball. The only problem—once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit." -Al Gallagher
by twinsgirl197 on May 31, 2011 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
You're the expert
I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew
haha, I think you mean
expert
"There are three things in my life which I really love: God, my family, and baseball. The only problem—once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit." -Al Gallagher
by twinsgirl197 on May 31, 2011 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't be so modest
You are the catching expert around here.
I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew
haha...
sure I am…
"There are three things in my life which I really love: God, my family, and baseball. The only problem—once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit." -Al Gallagher
by twinsgirl197 on May 31, 2011 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
No,
You really are the catching expert.
We appreciate and want all the info we can get around here.
I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew
haha ok
I’m ore than happy to give info but I don’t think I should be classified as an expert… That makes it sound like I’m actually really good at catching… I just get lucky!
"There are three things in my life which I really love: God, my family, and baseball. The only problem—once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit." -Al Gallagher
by twinsgirl197 on May 31, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
This is true for any position
It’s the reason a knee injury shuts down a pitcher.
We represent the lollipop guild
Its a good thing we don’t live in the land of Oz .. next thing you’d here is that Scott Baker has been carried off by Flying Monkeys.
Youth movement?
How long before we start to see some prospects get a shot? I am sure Revere gets a full time gig once Kubel, Cuddyer or Young is traded, but the pitching is less clear. Kyle Gibson and Carlos Gutierrez seem to be ready to go once they are added to the 40-man and promoted.
I'm to the point ....
Of admitting this crew – meaning Young, Cuddyer, Kubel, Valencia, Morneau, Mauer, Blackburn, Slowey, Baker, etc. – isn’t going to get it done.
I know that this year that’s a “DUH!!!!!:” I’m not talking about this year; I’m saying “in general”.
Even last year, the pieces were good enough to win a division, not good enough to do anything in the playoffs.
We have too many guys who “pitch to contact”. I’m afraid Liriano is fragile – he’s getting to old to emerge as a “top of the playoff rotation” starter. And any outfield of which Delmon Young is a member is going to be substandard defensively. Obviously, an infield which has Plouffe and/or Casilla is going to marginal as well.
We’ve talked around here for a number of years about the Twins reputation for playing sound baseball being overstated – I can’t believe a team that has pitchers “pitching to contact” routinely puts Kubel, Young and/or Cuddyer in the outfield or that it tolerates the defensive lapses we routinely see in the middle infield. In Little League, I’ve dealt with pitchers who tried to strike every batter out because they didn’t trust the guys behind them – I suspect Twins pitchers get a lump in their throat every time a ground ball is hit to Plouffe.
Kubel probably gets traded by the deadline. No offense to Jason – he’s a DH on a team stocked with DHs.
IMO, the Twins scouting & minor league system needs an overhaul. We need more pitchers who miss bats; if we’re going to continue to insist on this “pitch to contact” stuff, then we need to find Ozzie Smiths & Brooks Robinsons for the infield, etc. We simply can’t keep putting below average fielders out there behind pitchers who “pitch to contact.”
End of rant.
As you can tell, this is disgusting.
agreed...
The current group of Twins prospects should produce enough hitters to replace anyone departing in trade or free agency before next year (Young, Cuddyer, Kubel, Thome). Some of them may not be ready next year (Hicks, Benson, Kepler, Sano, Arcia, Parmelee and Morales), but there are filler options (Tosoni and Revere or Mauer in LF?) until they do.
The infield is another story, but hopefully Gardy will put Nishioka at SS and put an end to Plouffe and Casilla blowing games. There aren’t many options for 2B, so maybe they could sign someone in the off season? I would like to think that Plouffe can get his head straight with more time at AAA, but maybe that is wishful thinking. Any other internal options (Goodrum, Polanco and De los Santos) are probably 2-3 years away.
Unfortunately we have to start looking for a catcher since Mauer obviouly can’t stay healthy and we traded our best prospect (Ramos) for bottle capps. We could sign a veteran like Rod Barajas, Dioner Navarro or Gerald Laird in the offseason and hopefully start to groom some in the minors (Danny Rams?)
As you said, “pitch to contact” isn’t working in the playoffs. I think Kyle Gibson is a very different type of “pitch to contact” guy compared to Baker, Slowey, Pavano, etc. I love to hear the Derrek Lowe and Brandon Webb comparisons (Gibson’s GB rate is for real). Other than Gibson, the minors is filled with the typical soft throwing, command first “Twins Pitchers” (Bromberg, Hendriks, Salcedo, Stuifbergen, Dean, Wimmers). In a few years the rotation will be reset with Baker 2.0 (Wimmers), Blackburn 2.0 (Stuifbergen), and Duensing 2.0 (Dean). The organization can change this with a loaded draft and 3 picks in the first 2 rounds.
The rest of this season and the offseason will be really telling for the Twins. The trade deadline should bring some prospects as well as the draft. Hopefully free agency can bring in some difference makers since the departing contracts of Nathan, Cuddyer, Kubel, Capps and Thome will free up ~30 million.
Gibson and his groundball rates
He is the type of pitcher that might see his numbers improve at the majors. That is, if the Twins can find an infield to put behind him.
One Run Losses
Geez. It seems our dismal record is even worse when we look at one run games. That used to be a strength . . . Does anyone know our record in one run games this year?
. . .but maybe it is just the recent 5-6 scores . . . My quick count says we are 1
My quick count says we are 10-13 in one run games, which I guess we would take, eh?
Fun stat
Twins are undefeated when scoring more runs then their opponents
PROTIP: Getting batters out with a lead is the most effective way to win games
by NorthernStar on May 31, 2011 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions
If you had told me they lost in this exact scenario
I would have believed you. It’s just that kind of year…
Two major trade busts
Capps for Ramos: We need Ramos right now more than ever and Capps is not putting a cap in anything except for maybe his own rear end!
Hardy for Hoey: Hardy continues to field his position well, and has a few homers and is hitting in the .250 range with a .330 OBP. Hoey is giving up runs….it seems Capps must be his idol in the bullpen right now!
Those trades are not made, we have Hardy at SS and Ramos behind the plate, and Gutierrez, James, Dumatrait, and Slama in the bullpen potentially, or certainly any one of those pitchers available.
...formerly known as 33MorneauMVP
Hardy trade
they didn’t trade Hardy because they wanted Hoey. The wanted to unload Hardy and Hoey was the best they could get (or so they thought).
I wanted them to keep Hardy and felt they could have made payroll space by trading Young or Slowey, but for whatever reason, keeping Hardy was not a priority for the 2011 Twins.
I never said they
traded Hardy because they wanted Hoey, but that is what they got. I have never heard of anybody trading a gold glove SS for two mediocre minor league pitchers.
...formerly known as 33MorneauMVP
The Hardy trade was a salary dump
when you are dumping a player, you have to take what you can get. Unfortunately, they made the decision they were going to part ways with him no matter what.
Harris is the type of
player that nets two minor league pitchers, not Hardy
...formerly known as 33MorneauMVP
And if that is the case
I would have pulled from the trade effective before it happened.
I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew
No
Harris was the type of player that has negative value in trade because of his salary – the Twins reduced their return for Hardy by including Harris in the trade. Harris, by himself, was untradeable unless the Twins would’ve picked up his entire salary, which would of course negate the purpose of trading him.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
In a salary dump
especially with a gold glove SS, you have the upper hand so you don’t just take what they offer you. You have the upper hand. If the Orioles really wanted Hardy, they would have made the trade for him, but they threw out an offer to get things started and the Twins jumped on it. Idiotic front office.
...formerly known as 33MorneauMVP
You never have the upper hand in a salary dump.
Any time a team has determined they are going to trade a player, they are at an immediate disadvantage in any negotiation. And Hardy has never won a gold glove.
That does not mean that Hardy
is not a gold glove player. Jeter has won the Gold Glove since 1876 but he is no longer a gold glove player. Hunter has won it at least three years undeservedly. Gold Glove awards are biased. Hardy IS a gold glove player.
...formerly known as 33MorneauMVP
"Ok, we are going to trade
Jason Kubel because we want to get rid of his salary."
Boston calls, “Hey, we have Bobby Jenks! I know that he is only one player, and your usual going rate is two minor league pitchers, but he has been pitching in the major leagues for a long time. Oh, don’t look at his 9.88 ERA, that means nothing!”
Ok, Lets trade Kubel for Jenks. So basically, we trade our best hitter for nobody useful, but we put ourselves in that position by saying we were dumping Kubel because of Salary? Nope! Wrong!
...formerly known as 33MorneauMVP
Yeah,
but you never win when everybody knows you want to trade somebody. As soon as word got out that the Twins wanted to deal Hardy, every team in baseball would be low-balling them.
A bad trade is a bad trade. Keep it close to your vest to maximize value, unless you know you can start a bidding war. But the Twins didn’t start a bidding war, because everyone knew that not only were they trying to trade him…but they just didn’t want him anyway. They expressed their displeasure with him on a number of occasions, and dropped very un-subtle hints. It was very poorly handled.
Forget Gold Gloves and forget defense. The point is that the Twins undervalued Hardy, and they shot themselves in the leg when they tried to move him. Considering how they handled it I think they’re lucky they were able to dump Harris and most of his salary in the process…and no that is not advocating the trade.
Was it ever a salary Dump
Yes it was.
Plus we gave up on the 2011 season due to the way that Bill Smith mismanaged this roster.
I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew
I'm glad to see Slama up.
not that he’s going to do well but it’s time we made some roster moves on these relief guys. Either Slama should be on the 40 man or not, same goes for the rest of them. Diamond, Gibson, Gut could ( or should) all be on the 40 man. Time to cut some of the dead weight. As for me, I hope Slama does well.
Diamond on the 40 man
With perfect hindsight the decision to carry Dusty Hughes instead of Diamond on the MLB roster and trading off Bullock to keep Diamond instead looks like a complete disaster. I say that knowing Bullock has put up 7BB/9IP this year. It is a disaster because Diamond probably would have outpitched Hughes.
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