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Saturday Morning Breakfast & Baseball: Reading Smoke Signals

This time of year there are so many rumors it's hard to keep track of what's what or who's telling the truth. One rumor crops up, someone else denies it or changes the details, names start to crop up and eventually it all becomes one muddled amalgamation of truthiness. Of course this all relates to our Twins in terms of the Denard Span trade talk, which has been driving all of us various degrees of bananas.

There's no doubt that my reactions started in a stage of denial. The Twins have no reason to trade Span, the Nationals aren't offering enough anyway, yada yada yada. Not much had changed for me by Tuesday. By Wednesday the rumor had changed its shape, and while I still believed the Nationals were dreaming at least things started to appear at least quasi-realistc. Yet I wasn't really into the idea, and so when LEN III noted that "the Twins are not shopping their leadoff hitter" and that Washington was also "evaluating Ben Revere and CFs in the Twins' farm system" I was momentarily put at ease.

But after continuing action over the last two days, albeit with minor shifts and re-shifts in details, it's clear that there has been dialogue between Minnesota and Washington. It also bears understanding that "not shopping Span" does not mean "not taking offers on Span". Because it's almost certain that the Twins are fielding offers.

Espn_medium

As bbeck noted yesterday, Bowden was heavily involved in ESPN's live trade chat over the last few days. If you read bbeck's FanShot, you'll also see that Bowden said "there is truth to a Nats/Twins trade discussion that includes Storen, Bernadina, Span, Gibson and others."

Star-divide

Part of me understands that Bowden has his sources, and that a portion of what he says is probably very accurate. But if we analyse the information he gives us here, he may as well still consider himself the GM of the Nationals. Drew Storen for Denard Span isn't enough, but he's also tossing in Minnesota's top pitching prospect and somebody named Roger Bernadina? Nobody outside of Washington has heard of Roger Bernadina, and for good reason. He's a .243/.308/.360 hitter in 845 MLB plate appearances. He's 27.

And he's an outfielder. You know, the position of most strength in the Minnesota farm system. Aaron Hicks, Ben Revere, Joe Benson, Oswaldo Arcia, Max Kepler-Rozycki, Eddie Rosario, Rene Tosoni: seven of Twinkie Town's top 20 prospects coming into 2011 were outfielders. How would trading one of baseball's best leadoff hitters for a quadruple-A outfielder make sense in any way, shape or form?

It doesn't. Which should lead us to one of three conclusions.

  1. Jim Bowden is just making this stuff up. Excuse me if, in this situation, I don't find him to be the most trustworthy or unbiased of sources.
  2. Bowden chose poorly when including the names being discussed. Bernadina might be involved, hell all those four players might be involved, but if there's any truth to this then the Nationals will be matching prospects. At least two of them, including a starting pitcher. No matter how little faith some of you have in the Minnesota front office, they're not trading Span and Gibson for Storen and what amounts to a clone of Jason Repko.
  3. Building off of number two - we're missing a big part of the puzzle here. Whether that means additional (really good) prospects from the Nationals, another team getting involved, or different players that make this whole thing somewhat more palatable, it's just impossible to believe that we have the entire story here. The Twins can make a trade without becoming a "buyer" or "seller", provided the deal brings back the right pieces. It's a difficult thing to do, but Toronto pulled it off this week by trading for a piece that they knew another team wanted.

Right now it's just important to not jump to conlusions. Keep in mind that, as usual, these rumors aren't coming from anyone in the Minnesota front office. They've come from reporters (who state that the Nationals are the side expressing interest), from a baseball pundit who used to be the GM of the Nationals (Bowden), and from a Twins beat reporter who says the Twins aren't shopping Span (LEN III) which means they understand that they are in a position of strength.

Minnesota isn't looking to unload Span. The Nationals are going to have to come and get him. And if the best they can offer is Storen and Bernadina for Span and Gibson, then it's just not going to happen. Take that to the bank.

Comment 44 comments  |  2 recs  | 

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*WCTF slowly backs away from the rooftop ledge of a very tall building*

OK, Jesse…OK. If you say it’ll be OK, then I’ll trust you.

"...and we'll see ya tomorrow night!" - Jack Buck, Game 6, 1991 World Series

by WindyCityTwinsFan on Jul 30, 2011 8:22 AM EDT reply actions  

High five.

Just call me The Negotiator.

by Jesse on Jul 30, 2011 8:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

A big part of my anxiety

Is Bill Smith’s track record of failed trades. I would not be suprised if he traded Aaron Hicks today

by clutterheart on Jul 30, 2011 8:44 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

In the words of the noted baseball analyst Han Solo

“I dunno . . . I got a bad feeling about this.”

Steve Goodman lives.

by twinsbrewer on Jul 30, 2011 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

My concern

It worries me that Bowden claims that “Revere is their future CF”. Future as in when? This year? Next year? I would much rather have Span in CF rather than Revere for the next few years. In fact, I would rather have both Span and Revere in LF & CF and move Young to the bench. If Span gets shipped out I’m going to be very annoyed.

by markos on Jul 30, 2011 9:06 AM EDT reply actions  

I mean we all love Ben Revere

But clearly, Span is our present-future in CF now and Aaron Hicks is our Future developing on the farm.

by twinscrazy_german on Jul 30, 2011 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

I do not love Ben Revere.

by Brady Eyestone on Jul 30, 2011 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

Cretin.

"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
"God grab your neck but never choke" -Ozzie Guillen

by less cowbell, more 'neau on Jul 30, 2011 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

That was a WTF

Especially since Revere is stretched playing CF and looks like a future LF. I don’t understand what Bill Smith is doing. Is he playing for this year? Then he needs Span. Is he playing for next year? Then he needs to trade Kubel.

by DJL44 on Jul 30, 2011 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

That is probably one of the reasons why Bowden is an ex-GM.

by Brady Eyestone on Jul 30, 2011 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

This just in

Jim Bowden gives fischean a heart attack.

I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew

by Jessy S on Jul 30, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can understand "taking offers"

On any player. No player is so indispensable that the right offer can’t be scratched together (though that right offer might be prohibitive for anyone to make). So if the Nats threw something at the wall for Span, that’s not a big deal. If they ‘assumed’ based on last year, that the Twins would take it, well I can’t blame them for thinking that, given Smith’s record to date. But no, Span’s a big piece of the Twins puzzle. I’m not sure I’ve ever been sold on him as our leadoff hitter. He’s always seemed more a #2 to me. But I like him in CF.

by Shawn Gillogly on Jul 30, 2011 11:50 AM EDT reply actions  

What then do you consider his flaw as a leadoff hitter?

Maybe it’s his .358 OBP (.366 career) which is 30 (38) points above the average of leadoff hitters in the AL this year?

His OPS is also 28 points above the average. Denard Span is an above-average leadoff hitter!

by twinscrazy_german on Jul 30, 2011 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bowden is an idiot.

Everything he writes is basically stupid. I won’t listen to a word he says.

by Panthers FTW on Jul 30, 2011 12:06 PM EDT reply actions  

I'll assume that Bowden's insight is

what he’s hearing from the Nationals’ front office along with Ben Revere is a young rookie, I don’t know much about him but I’ve seen some crazy highlights on ESPN, so he must be their future center fielder, so Denard Span is expendable. He might not even realize that Revere isn’t close to the player that Span is now nor is he likely to be in the next few years.

by Pedro Munoz is fast on Jul 30, 2011 12:35 PM EDT reply actions  

True

I like Ben Revere, but his power needs to increase big time if he is going to stay in the lineup or else he will likely be lopped into the deal that sends Nishi packing to the national league.

I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew

by Jessy S on Jul 30, 2011 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Power is the least of my concerns with Revere

He needs to get on base at a .350+ clip. He needs to play better in the outfield, especially on liners in front of him. He needs to hit the cut-off man. If he did those three things consistently, he’d be a league average center fielder. But he has too many holes in his game right now to be even replacement level out there.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jul 30, 2011 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

+1...

He’s basically Carlos Gomez right now (with less power). He can be an elite defensive CF despite the arm, but the OBP HAS to improve dramatically for him to be a valuable, or even decent, player. He’s young so I wouldn’t count him out of that (look at Span’s career), but wishing for him to hit for power is futile IMO.

by DJSkillz on Jul 30, 2011 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's smarter than Gomez

Better contact skills. If he gets his average up he’ll be worth a darn and I expect his average to go up.

by DJL44 on Jul 30, 2011 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gomez has better range and a better arm

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jul 30, 2011 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gomez-level

He’s a totally different type of player (although both are fast). But I agree, he’s struggling to contribute in the same way Gomez was.

by DavidRF on Jul 30, 2011 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think they're ALL that different...

both crazy fast, both need to work on jumps in the OF, both “exciting” players with great smiles/personalities/energy. And both are terrible hitters, one with a little more power but less OBP than the other. They’re not ALL that different, really.

by DJSkillz on Jul 30, 2011 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gomez is a proven fielder with an arm

If the offense never comes, Gomez will be able to find a home batting 9th somewhere. On the other hand, there is already talk of moving Revere to LF because he can’t throw. A no-hit guy with range is pretty useless in LF.

Gomez is a lot more raw offensively. He’ll show power — even big power — from time to time. But, he also strikes out a lot and much of the time he’ll just look completely lost up there. He would occasionally do extremely bizarre and stupid things like bunt with two strikes or something. Revere is much more of a contact hitter with a decent head on his shoulders, but he seems limited by his skills. He just doesn’t hit the ball very hard.

So, they may be of comparable value, but they’re quite different types of players. Gomez tantalizes you with all-star ability but he’s been in the league long enough that you give up on him ever putting it all together that way. Revere seems to be overachieving already and yet we hope he can develop more on-base ability and that his noodle arm doesn’t force him to move positions.

by DavidRF on Jul 30, 2011 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

fair enough...

I don’t disagree with a lot of that.

by DJSkillz on Jul 30, 2011 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

+1

I’ve seen a lot of great center fielders. Gomez was the best pure fielder I’ve seen at the position. He was clearly better than Span, which is why Span always moved to a corner when they played together. But Span is clearly better than Revere in all phases of the game. The only thing Revere has is closing speed. He gets poor jumps. He lacks fundamentals. And he has the poorest arm I’ve seen in a Twins uniform since Rondell White.

BTW, what was up with Revere on that Weeks triple tonight? He took a bad route on the ball and let it get by him. But then he just jogged after it. If he sprints after it, he has a chance to get Weeks at third. The play was close as it was.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jul 31, 2011 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Terrible route

He went to where the ball was instead of where the ball was going

by DJL44 on Jul 31, 2011 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

Tigers make another move

Added Fister to the rotation. The Twins could get a king’s ransom for Pavano right now. Kuroda is the only SP on the market.

by DJL44 on Jul 30, 2011 2:27 PM EDT reply actions  

agreed....

and the Tigers gave up a lot for Fister really. Martinez AND a “significant” PTBNL, supposedly. Probably Castellanos or Ruffin IMO (top 2 picks in 2010 draft, can’t be “officially traded” until August 15th or so). If it is one of those 2 guys, plus Martinez, they gave up 2 of their top 6 prospects for a decent back end starter.

I’d look to deal Pavano too. His decline in K’s is worrisome as heck, he’s still owed a good deal of money, and we have a very capable replacement in Slowey.

by DJSkillz on Jul 30, 2011 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

This

I don’t think they’ll trade him, but they should.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jul 30, 2011 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is this a big cover-up?!?

All this talk about Span is mind-bending. Considering his value as a player and his low price tag for the Twins for the next 4 years, they’d have to be crazy to trade him for anything less than a warhorse pitcher. Revere is promising and well-liked, but he is definitely not a replacement for Span until 2013.

So, even though no one has faith in the negotiating skills of Bill Smith, could he be letting these rumors flourish so that no one pays attention to some other big move he’s about to make? What if he’s talking with a team about a middle infielder or starting pitcher? If everybody woke up Monday and the Twins unexpectedly had a mid to upper tier IF or SP, we’d all be shocked. And the Tigers and Indians would know the Twins are gunning for them.

by al-exx on Jul 30, 2011 3:44 PM EDT reply actions  

It is puzzling

All things considered (age, contract, talent, etc.), Span should be one of the most valuable trade chips the Twins have. The fact that they’re even considering trading him for one reliever is shocking. There has to be more to the story than what’s being reported from Rosenthal and co.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jul 30, 2011 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

agreed...

none of it makes any sense.

But then again, it’s Bill Smith, so maybe it does.

by DJSkillz on Jul 30, 2011 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right

BS is capable of anything if he can trade his only ace and his starting shortstop for a middling left fielder.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jul 30, 2011 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe they know more about his concussion?

But then why would the Nationals be so eager to get him?

by twinscrazy_german on Jul 30, 2011 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

right...

and if that’s the case, it’s still a bad trade, because there’s a code among GM’s. If Bill Smith trades Span knowing he’s damaged goods, that will come back to haunt the Twins. Might even be an investigation over it. Jim Bowden had that same scenario happen to him as a GM actually.

by DJSkillz on Jul 30, 2011 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly

It just doesn’t make sense. None of all this. Not in my head.

If this goes down, lets ask Kluwe to do another Hitler rampage

by twinscrazy_german on Jul 30, 2011 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

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