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Were the Twins Aiming Too High?

The Twins spent much of the deadline focused on acquiring Drew Storen. (Photo by Daniel Shirey/Getty Images)

I'm barely even going to get into the absurdity that is Bill Smith and Mike Rizzo both overvaluing Drew Storen so much that it's downright comical (Smith thinking it's a good idea to trade a 27-year-old elite defensive center fielder for a reliever, and Rizzo saying "no this reliever is too valuable, give me more than your premium position player that's locked up at a below-market cost" is somewhere around the baseball equivalent of Caddyshack in terms of epic humor in my mind). Instead I'm wondering why exactly Bill Smith was trying to (in his mind) hit a home run, when the Twins should've been looking to hit a single.

Star-divide

The Twins were in a precarious deadline position; they were in the spot no team wants to be in -- potentially damned if you do, damned if you don't. At seven games out of first place, there's plenty of time for the team to come back and make a run. However, the sustained injuries, weak bullpen/bench, and the absence of vintage Justin Morneau and Joe Mauer are noticeable obstacles. Selling off big prospects to make a run right now would likely prove to be foolhardy, while selling off Major League pieces means conceding a division race that may still be winnable.

Smith's "solution" to the problem, naturally, was to add an impact reliever, who -- deja vu anyone? -- plays for the Nationals. On the surface, adding a reliever from the Nats would make sense, if it were someone like Todd Coffey, for example. Coffey's an unspectacular middle reliever who nonetheless would improve the Twins' bullpen and could likely be obtained on the cheap. Smith and his regime may have contemplated this fact before Mike Rizzo came by peddling another reliever with saves. It's at that point that they decided they should attempt to trade their 27-year-old center fielder who's under team control through 2015 for $23.25M. That's $5.8M per season. For context, Span's never finished a season with less than 2.6 WAR (using FanGraphs), and the going rate on the free agent market per Win is roughly $5M.

In no way was adding a reliever such as Storen the route the Twins needed to go to win this season, or to set themselves up for future success. Regardless of adding in a nice prospect like Stephen Lombardozzi (son of former 1987 Twin of the same name), and/or a moderately competent replacement like Roger Bernadina, this trade would be highly unlikely to come out in the Twins' favor.

From the sound of things, the Twins were dead-focused on acquiring Storen in the days prior to the deadline. So much so, it would seem, that Kevin Slowey, who's rotting away in Triple-A, still remains in Rochester despite persisted interest from the Rockies and Pirates. Not only that, but the front office's "long-term" solution didn't involve trading pending free agents Jason Kubel and Michael Cuddyer, who both drew significant interest (Kubel again from the Pirates), it involved trading someone who should be a significant part of this team for years to come. That's a head-scratcher, to save the least.

There were plenty of relievers and bench bats that could have been had cheaply should the Twins have pursued them. It's likely that the front office is merely waiting to make some low-profile August trades as they did for Jon Rauch and Carl Pavano in years past. These deals could take a few weeks to facilitate, however, which is another few weeks that Twins fans are subjected to the Alex Burnett and Jose Mijares Base on Balls Bonanza.

Perhaps the plan all along was to simply wait it out and make those August deals, but once Rizzo dangled Storen, Bill Smith and his team simply couldn't help themselves. It sure would've been nice to see some immediate help in the form of bench and/or bullpen upgrades, though. It seems that this front office is instead continually focused on upgrading the bullpen by adding a nominal stat with which they're infatuated, when in reality they could be upgrading it simply by replacing Alex Burnett and Jose Mijares with league-average (or slightly better) arms like Coffey, Chad Qualls, Juan Cruz, etc. who could be had without having to surrender elite prospects.

It appears as if the Twins' front office spent their deadline focusing their (thankfully fruitless) efforts on the future, content to place the present day on the back burner. The non-committal approach could end up costing the Twins if they have to carry on with this bullpen while they wait for August deals to come to fruition. I suppose at the very least, I'm thankful we still have Span, but I can't help but think the Twins brass was looking to take a big gamble (putting it nicely) on their future when some minor, immediate improvements would've been a better approach.

Steve Adams also writes for MLBTradeRumors.com and contributes at 612Sports.net and MLB.com. You can follow him on Twitter: @Adams_Steve

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Passan was right in his article

Trading quality everyday players (I won’t go as far as to say Span is ‘elite’) with market friendly deals for a reliever—two years in a row— is beyond absurd. It’s myopic and imbecilic.

That the only thing that saves Bill Smith from himself is the other GM was so convinced he could fleece the Twins that he insisted on stealing even ‘more’ from us does not alleviate his stupidity. He’s out of his depth, and needs to be gone.

by Shawn Gillogly on Aug 2, 2011 9:33 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Agreed

Bill Smith has to be one of the dumbest GM’s ever. He can’t handle the job, continually making stupid decisions. I think it’s time for a new GM ASAP! Get him the hell outta here, its like he’s trying to make us a worse team. I have zero faith in him what so ever. I miss Terry Ryan, he actually used a little something called a brain. I don’t think Smith knows what a brain is, if he did he wouldn’t make such idiotic moves all the time.

by Gooseke on Aug 2, 2011 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Old Twins managers and FO personnel never die

They just “voluntarily” take on new jobs in the organization. That’s what happened to Kelly and Ryan. Not sure how voluntary the Ullger moves have been.

If we acknowledge that Smith is a Peter Principle poster child, we would move him to an assistant GM role in charge of practice baseballs and promote Johnson as the GM. He’s the only guy in the FO who has distinguished himself in the last few years, with stellar drafts. Antony is the guy who signed all those washed-up free agents. Radcliff’s record is tarnished by his drafts.

To JKB below, this isn’t the move that gets BS reassigned. It was the combination of the Delmon, Caps and Hoey moves the demonstrate abject incompetence. He’s had his moments (Pavano, Thome), but his trade record is putrid.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Aug 2, 2011 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I think the "promote from within" can hurt them

It turns into an echo chamber. No new ideas or approaches that aren’t similar to an old idea or approach.

I don’t know how a major league GM can fail to understand positional scarcity.

by DJL44 on Aug 2, 2011 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Aren't we being a little hard on Smith?

I’m certainly no fan, and I’m not trying to give him a pass but the trade never happened. Firing him for something that he didn’t do, something that he only thought about, is probably not the best way to improve the roster.

We’re lambasting him for making a stupid decision when in this case, the decision he made (to keep Span) was the right one.

If my boss fired me for something I never did, or fired me for thinking about doing something before realizing it was the wrong choice and not doing it at all, I would have a serious gripe.

In the end, in this example, Bill Smith did the right thing which was not executing this stupid trade. From what we know, he didn’t propose the trade, it came to him from the Nats. In the end, he came to his senses and Denard Span is still a Twin.

The beard abides.

by Jason Kubel's Beard on Aug 2, 2011 9:53 AM EDT reply actions   2 recs

I think you have a point.

But even without this, I think you can make a decent case for a change at the top.

Bucky's 5th Quarter The best site for Badger news on the web!

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On, Wisconsin!

by John Veldhuis on Aug 2, 2011 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

Who knows what the internal discussions were? Maybe the Twins were trying to push Revere for Storen or Clippard. Maybe the Twins were holding out for better secondary pieces.

Considering how little Rasmus and Bourn netted, I’d say that Smith is at least “only” the third least competent GM in baseball.

by Han Joelo on Aug 2, 2011 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

Ed Wade's hands are tied

His boss told him to cut payroll. He has little leverage. That said, he’s still not a great GM.

by DJL44 on Aug 2, 2011 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think heMADE the right decision. I think Mike Rizzo FORCED him to make the right decision.

by Brady Eyestone on Aug 2, 2011 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

"Just do as I say Mr. Smith..."

"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
"There is absolutely no connection between me, Emo Phillips, and 'emo' music." -Emo Phillips

by less cowbell, more 'neau on Aug 2, 2011 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

"Nats want Span, not willing to deal Storen."

This was the headline all weekend, it was NEVER “Twins looking for closer Storen, shopping Span.”

Nats wanted Span and couldn’t put a package together to get him. How the hell does that turn into our GM being stupid for answering a phone call and asking for a closer (under team control for a few years…) + additional pieces in return?!?!?!

  Smith’s only mistake this time around was not asking for more, but since this didn’t get OK’d by the Nats anyway, obviously they didn’t need Span that bad after all.

 I wouldn’t have been happy if this deal would’ve gone down, Span belongs here if we want to compete in the next few years, but to have this sort of “outrage” following a non-deal is simply absurd. And if all we need is relievers, just check our track record of picking them up in August. Not that hard to do, especially for a 4th place team.

"...and we'll see ya tomorrow night!" - Jack Buck, Game 6, 1991 World Series

by WindyCityTwinsFan on Aug 2, 2011 10:10 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Hopefully he learned from his past mistakes

We also can’t be certain we have a true picture of what went on behind the curtain. Relying on Bowden as a source is suspect. Rumor mongers need rumors and updates, it could be that nothing much ever happened.

by DJL44 on Aug 2, 2011 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

More than just Bowden said this

As noted, Passan makes pretty much the same statement. And his version ‘does’ seem to indicate that Smith at least was infatuated by the idea.

Which points again to his asinine preoccupation with trading everyday players for bullpen arms. It’s not the first time he’s done it. At what point does expecting something different from him become the definition of insanity?

by Shawn Gillogly on Aug 2, 2011 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

But he didn't do it

That’s my point….he’s being pronounced guilty for a crime that was never committed!!

The beard abides.

by Jason Kubel's Beard on Aug 2, 2011 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

But he wanted to, if he could get Storen.

Hopefully, there was more to it, but had he gotten Storen and made that trade it would have been awful.

I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy!!!

by bf4mvp on Aug 2, 2011 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

we're only seeing the tip of the iceberg

we have no idea what was discussed

I agree though that it would have been an awful trade and I’m glad it didn’t happen

The beard abides.

by Jason Kubel's Beard on Aug 2, 2011 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed... I don't worry too much about "vapor trades"

I hardly think its worth a post-mortem analysis, a fifth place team calls a fourth place team and asks for something we value. We respond by saying it would require more than they want to give up and nothing happens.

Not a big deal but yesterday was an off day so we were likely slated for a “Trade Deadline Feature” and we all have time to discuss it. :-)

by DavidRF on Aug 2, 2011 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Doubly agreed

I think the only reason we’re talking about it is there’s nothing else to talk about.

I suppose there’s a case to be made that we should have made some sort of deal, but we’re neither clearly one of the favorites for the division nor entirely out of it either. And that limbo zone is an odd place to be. I think standing pat is exactly what we should have done. With both Span and Morneau returning from injury and Mauer and Thome starting to look like their oldselves, the Twins might be able to make a good August run. Or they could continue to play ~.500 ball and languish behind the Tigers. There’s no way to know, and making a trade just for the sake of making a trade would have been silly.

by ColossusOfRhode on Aug 2, 2011 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

We don't have the pitching right now to make a run.

Pavano and Blackie are almost unwatchable right now. Liriano is a ??? every time he starts. Duensing is okay and Baker is good. We would have to have a lot of offense to get over the hump that is our pitching staff. We have too many holes in the lineup to do that.

I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy!!!

by bf4mvp on Aug 2, 2011 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

come on

This deal was hinged on a number of players in return for Span – we only have an idea of what or who was discussed. Sounded like each GM was overvaluing his own piece, and there’s no fault to be found in that.

"...and we'll see ya tomorrow night!" - Jack Buck, Game 6, 1991 World Series

by WindyCityTwinsFan on Aug 2, 2011 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

+1

The lynch mob mentality really gets out of hand here from time to time.

"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
"There is absolutely no connection between me, Emo Phillips, and 'emo' music." -Emo Phillips

by less cowbell, more 'neau on Aug 2, 2011 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Pitchforks, shovels, torches, tar and feather, hang 'em high!

I see no lynch mob here

"We’re all in this boat together. Everybody grab an oar."
-Tom Kelly

by Go Twins! on Aug 2, 2011 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

But it is needed given what Bill Smith has done within the last year. First we have the Capps for Ramos trade that shouldn’t have happened in hindsight, but it made sense at the time since our bullpen was falling apart at the seams.

Second we have the JJ Hardy trade which was disliked by 90% of Twinkie Town, but I actually defended it at the time.

Third, Jose Morales was traded for a relief pitcher who is currently on his death bed or close to it.

Finally, we have the Johan Santana deal where Bill waited too long to pull the plug.

I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew

by Jessy S on Aug 2, 2011 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

BTW

The Johan Santana deal was in 2008, but Bill Smith deserves to be sacked for being a subpar GM.

I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew

by Jessy S on Aug 2, 2011 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly

You cannot blame Bill Smith because he made a trade for someone who later came down with brain cancer. Way out of line here.

by missles on Aug 3, 2011 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

No

but you can blame him for trading the only other backup catcher in the organization besides Butera. Yes, I know, Morales isn’t all that great on D.

by archie2227 on Aug 3, 2011 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's guilty because HE would have done it

He doesn’t get pronounced innocent because the other partner was even more guilty for not accepting the silver platter when he was handed it.

by Shawn Gillogly on Aug 2, 2011 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

We're mind readers now?

"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
"There is absolutely no connection between me, Emo Phillips, and 'emo' music." -Emo Phillips

by less cowbell, more 'neau on Aug 2, 2011 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

All reports are that he did not offer the Nationals anything on a silver platter

He listened to the Nationals offers. He didn’t accept any of them.

Everything else is speculation.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Aug 2, 2011 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kind of sounds like congress

Blame somebody for something they never did, hold it against them

"We’re all in this boat together. Everybody grab an oar."
-Tom Kelly

by Go Twins! on Aug 2, 2011 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Where did Passan get his info?

In the height of the rumor mill, one guy can be the source for everything.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Aug 2, 2011 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Guessing Mike Rizzo

We will likely never know what the Twins wanted. More than likely they wanted both Drew Storen and Bryce Harper. Granted people are mad at him, but the Nationals needed to pay a price to get Denard Span. They should have gotten B.J. Upton instead.

I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew

by Jessy S on Aug 2, 2011 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with the premise

The Twins should have focused on making a small deal for a relief pitcher if they decided they were buyers. They can still make that deal, though I think they’re more “sellers” now than they were a week ago. Time is running out, they can’t stand still or lose ground. 7 games back with 54 remaining doesn’t give much hope.

Focusing on waiver selling – the Twins probably can’t get Kubel through waivers – he’s worth picking up just for the draft pick. Same with Cuddyer – he might not make it past Kansas City. Pavano, Capps and Nathan have enough $$ remaining that they may make it up to a contender.

by DJL44 on Aug 2, 2011 10:29 AM EDT reply actions  

They pursued Rauch

That was the only deal they were rumored to be the aggressors on, and they failed. But I agree. They should have been sellers after Detroit.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Aug 2, 2011 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Unwarranted assumptions

This article makes a lot of unwarranted assumptions, particularly that BS was too focused on the Storen trade that he didn’t do anything else. How the hell do we know that? The Twins do play things close to the vest.

I’d also be wary of Bowden’s comments after the fact. He’s the one who came out and said this was a foregone conclusion, now he’s trying to save face.

That said, I’d be lying if I said I’m not worried the Twins will revisit this in the offseason and will trade Span for a reliever. But until then, it’s not right to get on BS for a trade that didn’t happen just because of the impression we get from a one-sided rumor mill.

by matswilander on Aug 2, 2011 10:46 AM EDT reply actions  

Speculation about trades is part of being a fan

People wouldn’t get so up in arms about the Span trade rumors if we didn’t care about the team. There’s no need to dismiss people as “arm chair GMs” and “know it alls” just because they don’t agree with you.

"Nobody wants to hear me rap." - Joe Mauer
"METEOR" - JIM THOME

by what_would_gil_thorp_do on Aug 2, 2011 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

+1

speculation is more than fine, it is fun. When, however, people start an angry rant about what the Twins will do next month with said player, it isn’t much fun for anyone.

That said, I also don’t understand the point of this original article by Steve Adams. Where is a source that states Bill Smith spent “much of the deadline focused on acquiring Drew Storen.” ? Where is the source that confirms “the Twins were dead-focused on acquiring Storen in the days prior to the deadline.” ?

How do we know Bill Smith didn’t spit out his coffeee in open contempt when the Nats asked about Span for a relief pitcher? How do we know that Bill Smith didn’t set a very expensive threshold for Span and refuse to waste much time unless he got what he wanted? How do we know that Smith spent a bunch of time on the Span talks and neglected attempts to move/acquire other players? We don’t know.

Being long on speculation and short on facts is pretty excusable in a blog atmosphere like ours, but it crosses a line when that is all there is to justify very strong and negative opinion on the Twinkie Town front page.

I don't know, but I've been told it's hard to run with the weight of gold,
'the other hand, I've heard it said, it's just as hard with the weight of lead.

by montanatwinsfan on Aug 2, 2011 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

Well, we have past precedent.

Hardy, Ramos. I don’t think the speculation is that out of line if you look at his history.

I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy!!!

by bf4mvp on Aug 2, 2011 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yup.

I want to believe Smith is not a terrible GM, but we have a track record of exceptionally poor trade timing and talent evaluation from the FO, and there is a reason most Twins fans were relieved when the deadline came & went with Span still in the fold. I take it with a grain of salt, but most articles about the Span talks sounded like WASH would not do a 1 for 1 if Storen was included, never mind the added table scraps that Smith defenders suggest in this thread.

It looked like the Twins over valued the save stat, and were prepared to deal a quality player at a time when his perceived trade value was low. If that is accurate then Jonah Keri is right about Bill Smith being a patsy.

by Buddy Grant on Aug 2, 2011 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Where is the source indeed.

The truth is that the Twins may have listened to just one phone call from the Nationals and Bill Smith said no. When they called the second time Bill Smith just hung up and ordered no more calls from the Nationals. In fact, he might have ordered the front office to focus on the waiver wire starting this week. Anyway, it is very likely that the Nationals tried a third time and were hung up on by his secretary, and at that point, the rumors started with the Nationals hoping that Bill Smith reconsiders.

It is possible that this was his schedule this past weekend:

Saturday:
9 AM: Woke up and checked Twinkie Town for the Final score since the Star Tribune wouldn’t have the score printed in the morning edition
10 AM: Played ball with his kids.
12 Noon: Lunch
1 PM: Went shopping with the wife at Mall of America
4 PM: Came Home and went Grocery shopping at Cub Foods.
5 PM: Came Home and rested.
6 PM: Dinner
7 PM: Did laundry
8:30 PM: Sat down to watch the Twins
11 PM: Went to bed

Sunday
8:30 AM: Got up and checked the score at Twinkie Town
8:45 AM: e-mailed Jesse Lund to set up an interview after finding out the hate toward a possible trade of Denard Span.
9:00 AM: Went to Church
10:00 AM: Came home and rested
12 Noon: Lunch
1 PM: Walked the dog.
2 PM: Said no to a last minute deal for Kevin Slowey.
3 PM: Watched the Twins.

I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew

by Jessy S on Aug 2, 2011 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

when did he make time

to steal candy from the neighborhood babies, and kick his dog?

I don't know, but I've been told it's hard to run with the weight of gold,
'the other hand, I've heard it said, it's just as hard with the weight of lead.

by montanatwinsfan on Aug 2, 2011 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

REC'D

Talk about funny.

I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew

by Jessy S on Aug 2, 2011 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

he snuck out in the middle of the night to do that

it’s suspicious that he “sleeps” from 11 pm to 8:30 am. He probably uses that time to steal candy, kick puppies, and drink all the milk in Joe Mauer’s fridge.

Otherwise why would he block off 11 to 8:30 for sleep? WHAT ARE YOU HIDING SMITH!?!!!

"Nobody wants to hear me rap." - Joe Mauer
"METEOR" - JIM THOME

by what_would_gil_thorp_do on Aug 2, 2011 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

That is normal sleeping time for most people.

I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew

by Jessy S on Aug 2, 2011 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Evil Bill Smith

I like it. We can use it when things don’t go our way in the game threads.

I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew

by Jessy S on Aug 2, 2011 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

One of the kids?

I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew

by Jessy S on Aug 3, 2011 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's a fair point

There’s a fine line between speculation and ranting.

"Nobody wants to hear me rap." - Joe Mauer
"METEOR" - JIM THOME

by what_would_gil_thorp_do on Aug 2, 2011 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

FIRE BERRY!11!!

"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
"There is absolutely no connection between me, Emo Phillips, and 'emo' music." -Emo Phillips

by less cowbell, more 'neau on Aug 2, 2011 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

I probably fit the description

And I find the game threads bloated and boring. 90% of the comments make no sense 5 mins later because there is no context. Rarely ever check them.

I wouldn’t begin to think I could walk in and be a major league GM. There is so much more to the job than making major league transactions. I’m sure I’d screw up a draft royally and I have no idea how to set up a minor league training program or pick someone to oversee it.

Judging Bill Smith solely on his deadline trades or busted free agent signings with limited to no knowledge of the thought process (Were his scouts wrong? Did the owner overrule?) is unwise.

by DJL44 on Aug 2, 2011 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

In defense of the game threads

They’re meaningful if you’re watching the game live. For me living far away from most other Twins fans and watching most games on my office computer, it’s a good way to “watch the game with other people” even if they are just strangers on the Internet.

But yeah, I don’t go back and read them later… I think of them as logged chat rooms.

by ColossusOfRhode on Aug 2, 2011 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pretty much this.

They’re fun when watching the game, but I don’t read the threads for the ones that I miss.

by funnytrain on Aug 2, 2011 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

I consider it banter between fans like you have at a game

"We’re all in this boat together. Everybody grab an oar."
-Tom Kelly

by Go Twins! on Aug 2, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Double agree

It’s like sitting in a virtual stadium/bar/living room filled with dedicated fans

The beard abides.

by Jason Kubel's Beard on Aug 2, 2011 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Have to agree with DJL44

To a point at least. Game threads are glorified chat rooms and I love it. But he also has a point because Twinsgirl and others manage to twist the convo one way or another and they tend to turn into something unrelated to the game. Half the time, Twinsgirl doesn’t get a reference and it turns into a 50 comment mini-thread.

I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew

by Jessy S on Aug 2, 2011 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't know that the Twins play things half as close to the vest

as we like to think. They’ve done a grand job of devaluing their own players by overtly shopping them (and saying they would be gone in no uncertain terms) in the recent past. That’s not consistent with playing things close to the vest.

I would prefer a GM who did do that, mind you. And maybe even one who said, “No, we really don’t ‘have’ to trade this guy,” every so often, even if he intended to.

by Shawn Gillogly on Aug 2, 2011 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

Fine

but this stuff wasn’t being leaked by the Twins

by matswilander on Aug 2, 2011 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Every time reporters asked, Smith said, "no comment"

That’s SOP for the Twins. They simply do not discuss trades. It’s one of the reasons a story like this gets blown out of proportion. Clearly the Nationals were leaking their interest in Span to the press. Clearly they also leaked that the Twins were interested in Storen as part of the potential return. So the story got distorted because one team talked and the other didn’t.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Aug 2, 2011 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

my personal opinion

is that Rizzo added that he wanted other pieces in addition to Span for Storen just to make his closer feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

There were no rumors about other players from the Twins until after the trade fell through.

I have to believe the Twins were asking for multiple guys in addition to Storen as that was consistent throughout the rumors.

Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?

by halfchest on Aug 2, 2011 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah

Bill said I want Bryce Harper too or no deal.

I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew

by Jessy S on Aug 2, 2011 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wish it was SOP

If it was, the Hardy return might have been realistic. Or pretty much any other occasion where we’ve initiated trade talks. Any time we say we’re going to trade someone, we show our hand before the turn. And then we’re shocked when we get rubbish in return.

We SHOULD play things close to the vest. But I wouldn’t call it SOP that we do.

by Shawn Gillogly on Aug 2, 2011 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

try

the startribune newspaper. You’ll fit right in.

by MagikLair on Aug 2, 2011 11:25 AM EDT reply actions  

Oh lighten up

It’s an off day after the trade deadline – what else did you want to discuss? And I for one definitely found myself hoping against hope that Smith would NOT try to swing a trade because that is how little faith I have in his ability to value trades. I’m sure I wasn’t alone in this.

by dctwin on Aug 2, 2011 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

The trade talks with Washington were more about next year...

I think in Bill Smiths perspective the “Storen deal” was about who are closer is going to be next year and beyond. I can’t wait to read all the comments about Capps and Nathan this off-season. About how we need to find a top of the line closer who is affordable. In a year we might realize this was one of the most affordable closers we could get, and count on?

by Iowatwinswin on Aug 2, 2011 1:03 PM EDT reply actions  

You don't need to go out and and get a closer

You can make a closer. Eddie Guardado and Joe Nathan were never closers and I think they turned out just fine.

by John_Locke on Aug 2, 2011 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

And to add on to that

Sadly, it seems that the front office seems to have forgotten this. They chose Rauch in ’10 spring training because he had what, a half season as the closer? Then they go out and get Matt Capps because he has done it before.

by John_Locke on Aug 2, 2011 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

agreed

In fact the more I look at the numbers, I think the Twins should have seen if they would take Revere for Clippard. He might be the better pitcher of the two even though he’s older. Those K rates are insane, future closer written all over him.

Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?

by halfchest on Aug 2, 2011 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also Rick Aguilera

The top THREE closers in Twins history were failed starters who were converted to relief pitchers (one of whom was converted to relief before coming to Minnesota, but the Twins made him a closer). For a team that prides itself on organizational continuity, they apparently don’t have much of a memory when it comes to how to find closers. Seriously, Capps was the first guy who was already a closer when they acquired him since Jeff Reardon.

"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

by BeefMaster on Aug 2, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with what an above poster here said

The Twins did the RIGHT thing in this scenerio….. the Nats wanted Span

and we said, You’re going to have to give us you’re 2nd best pichet to have him…

  1. Jordan Zimmerman #2 Drew Storen #3 John Lannan #4 Tyler Clippard …………..ect.
    Stephen Strasburg is untouchable

we set our sights HIGH and I’m glad we did, the Nats balked and good for them and goood for us….’

happy day

~David Kahn is pretty much clueless~
Twins top 11 ~ Gibson, Sano, Hendriks, Hicks, Arcia, Salcedo, Benson, Michael, Kepler, Rosario, Gutierrez ~

by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Aug 2, 2011 1:19 PM EDT reply actions  

BS didn't trade Slowey either

Contrary to what a lot of very certain posters claimed would happen. Good non-move. Obviously he’ll be worth more in the offseason if he keeps pitching like he did last game. And who knows, maybe he’ll pull a Perkins and get out of the doghouse.

by Han Joelo on Aug 2, 2011 1:40 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

We can all hope

And maybe Blackburn will be good when the weather is hot. Anybody else notice how good Blackie is in the spring and fall? Summers just kill his pitches though or something.

"We’re all in this boat together. Everybody grab an oar."
-Tom Kelly

by Go Twins! on Aug 2, 2011 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I've noticed that

I know that hot humid air is good for fast bicycling as it reduces the air drag. Maybe his sinker doesn’t slow down as much in hot humid air and it doesn’t sink as much.

by gonzobob on Aug 2, 2011 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think many people are too upset that the Twins stood pat this year.

Selling wouldn’t have been a bad idea, but Bill Smith isn’t very good at trading (to say the least), so I’m okay with not making any moves. On the other hand, I can see why the Twins think that they’re not completely out of contention, but I’m glad that they didn’t see themselves as buyers. I guess a lot of this sentiment is because none of us trust the FO to make good trades.

by funnytrain on Aug 2, 2011 2:54 PM EDT reply actions  

But doesn't that prove the point?

If none of us think Bill Smith can be trusted with roster moves, how can he be trusted in a position where such is his primary duty?

by Shawn Gillogly on Aug 2, 2011 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

A google image of an internet rant here

would be giving you too much credit.

I don't know, but I've been told it's hard to run with the weight of gold,
'the other hand, I've heard it said, it's just as hard with the weight of lead.

by montanatwinsfan on Aug 2, 2011 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

That being said, thank God we did not trade Span.

Let loose the hogs of war!
Dogs of war..
Whatever farm animal of war, Lana...

by darren004 on Aug 2, 2011 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bill Smith is an idiot

That’s what it boils down to. I’ve been in denial for several years, but I think he’s a terrible GM and our franchise is in trouble as long as he stays in charge. Can you name one trade he’s made that we came out ahead on? I can’t think of any, and even if there are a couple, the bad ones far outweigh the good at this point.

by Cobra312004 on Aug 2, 2011 3:49 PM EDT reply actions  

Good trades

Ladendorf for OCab
Pino for Pavano
Mulvey for Rauch
Gomez for Hardy
Van Mil for Fuentes

"Nobody wants to hear me rap." - Joe Mauer
"METEOR" - JIM THOME

by what_would_gil_thorp_do on Aug 2, 2011 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

+1

He has had his moments. He was on a roll until the Capps trade. Now he seems to be in a slump. I guess GMs can have hot and cold streaks too.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Aug 2, 2011 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

what's worrisome though...

is that those are all fairly short-term moves. and for not really big pieces (other than hardy, or so we thought). i know some will argue pavano; but i would not. he’s a decent pitcher, nothing more, and only slightly better than a lot of options we have (Slowey, Swarzak, etc.) IMO.

on all of the “big” trades, he’s struck out, big-time. Garza + Bartlett for Delmon, Santana for a bag of balls, Hardy for 2 crappy relievers, and Ramos for Capps. That’s incredibly concerning. I’d rather he miss on some of the “minor” deals and hit on the big ones.

by DJSkillz on Aug 2, 2011 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

yep

hard to argue with the facts:

Santana for a bag of balls

I don't know, but I've been told it's hard to run with the weight of gold,
'the other hand, I've heard it said, it's just as hard with the weight of lead.

by montanatwinsfan on Aug 2, 2011 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Its frustrating looking back at the other offers:

From MLB Trade Rumors:

Seems that this deal is official enough to evaluate. We know for a fact that the Twins will receive Carlos Gomez, Philip Humber, Kevin Mulvey, and Deolis Guerra. The general consensus seems to be that Twins GM Bill Smith passed on other offers that were better than this.

If Smith had taken the Yankees’ best offer, he’d have an MLB-ready pitcher who was very recently regarded as the game’s best pitching prospect (Phil Hughes). He’d also have a solid regular center fielder in Melky Cabrera. And the Twins would’ve gotten a couple of upside players on top of that.

Boston’s top offer was better as well. The Twins could’ve filled center field, shortstop, and closer needs immediately with Jacoby Ellsbury, Jed Lowrie, and Justin Masterson.

But that’s just my take. The best folks to evaluate the Twins’ return will be Baseball America, Keith Law, and Baseball Prospectus’ Kevin Goldstein. The Twins could very well come out smelling like a rose; they just chose riskier, less proven players. As for the Mets, Omar Minaya deserves all the accolades for acquiring the best pitcher in baseball without surrendering his top prospect or anyone from the big league club.

We could have had Phil Hughes and Melky Cabrera
or
We could have had Jacoby Ellsbury, Jed Lowrie and Justin Masterson

WTF Bill Smith – even at the time it wasn’t judged as the best offer

"We’re all in this boat together. Everybody grab an oar."
-Tom Kelly

by Go Twins! on Aug 2, 2011 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Can I re-iterate

2011 Stats
Jacoby Ellsbury OF=.320/.376/.514 17 HR
Jed Lowrie SS, 2B, 3B=.270/.319/.403 3 HR
Justin Masterson P=8-7, 2.56 ERA, 112 SO

Any one of these three would have been a better trade, let alone all three.

Hindsight is 20/20 I realize but these were clearly good prospects even in 2004. The FO gets paid to have foresight. Whats wrong with Twins scouting? Whats wrong with Bill Smith????

"We’re all in this boat together. Everybody grab an oar."
-Tom Kelly

by Go Twins! on Aug 2, 2011 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

well i wasn't a big fan of the trade then, and I still am not a big fan of the trade,

and I don’t begrudge you a bit of 20/20 hindsight. I do have a beef with people picking out the things they don’t like and creating hyperbolic arguments about firing Bill Smith (or Gardy) based on the TINY sample of public things we as fans are privy to.

I don't know, but I've been told it's hard to run with the weight of gold,
'the other hand, I've heard it said, it's just as hard with the weight of lead.

by montanatwinsfan on Aug 2, 2011 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Then we'd be facing Johan Santana as a yanqui several times a year

Bad idea.

"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
"There is absolutely no connection between me, Emo Phillips, and 'emo' music." -Emo Phillips

by less cowbell, more 'neau on Aug 2, 2011 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Several?

Maybe once or twice. How much did we lose in WAR for not being able to deal with seeing him in a uniform 10 times over the rest of his career?

That’s absurd logic. You trade based on value to your team. Not spite.

by Shawn Gillogly on Aug 2, 2011 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Better he's with the Mets than yanquis or Red Sawx.

"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
"There is absolutely no connection between me, Emo Phillips, and 'emo' music." -Emo Phillips

by less cowbell, more 'neau on Aug 2, 2011 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Santana hasn't been great since TJ surgery and since he was traded

I’m more scared of CC. They were going to have a great pitcher no matter what. Would rather face one that the team knew everything about. The Twins do well against former pitchers of theirs.

"We’re all in this boat together. Everybody grab an oar."
-Tom Kelly

by Go Twins! on Aug 2, 2011 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

They'd still have CC, plus Johan.

And no one knew he would need TJS before he was traded.

"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
"There is absolutely no connection between me, Emo Phillips, and 'emo' music." -Emo Phillips

by less cowbell, more 'neau on Aug 2, 2011 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Like we don't lose to the Yankees no matter what?

"We’re all in this boat together. Everybody grab an oar."
-Tom Kelly

by Go Twins! on Aug 2, 2011 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's the spirit!

"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
"There is absolutely no connection between me, Emo Phillips, and 'emo' music." -Emo Phillips

by less cowbell, more 'neau on Aug 2, 2011 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

This seems like sarcasm, no?

The Mets get Santana and his $137 million, seven year contract (for which he has played two out of four healthy seasons) for:

  • one year of Gomez+one year of Hardy +two relief prospects
  • Mulvey = One year and two months of Rauch
  • Guerra: A pitching prospect who is still young and is second in all of the Twins minor league system in ERA at AA

Even after all is said and done, the Twins have three relief prospects and the Mets have an aging, expensive and often injured pitcher. I’m not sure the Mets even got the better end of the deal.

That said, if (and it’s a big if) the Red Sox offered Ellsbury, Lowrie, and Masterson for Santana and Smith turned them down, it was a huge missed opportunity.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Aug 3, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

+1 as well

BS has screwed up. But, as they say in my field, there are only two kinds of river guides—those who have flipped, and those who will. Currently, Jon Daniels and A.A. from up north seem to be the cream of the crop, but Billy Beane the movie star traded away Andre Ethier and Carlos Gonzales and Theo Epstein gave $80+million to an outfielder whom I can’t even remember his name right now. And, the GM who fleeced BS in the Santana trade gave a ton of money to, well, Santana, who has been largely hurt, and Jason Bay, he of the 7 home runs. And the vaunted Mike Rizzo signed Michael Cuddyer to a $126 Million contract. Only this M. Cuddyer can’t play anything but RF.

So, there are only two kinds of GM’s. Those that have screwed up and those that will. The respective GM’s of the Rockies and Indians are waiting to see. Brian Sabean still has a job,

by Han Joelo on Aug 2, 2011 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

True

And the general consensus is that the Rockies fleeced the Indians last Saturday.

I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew

by Jessy S on Aug 2, 2011 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Focus

I believe the Twins should be focused on starting pitchers and worry about the bullpen later.

by Emma2011 on Aug 2, 2011 5:54 PM EDT reply actions  

First - no way this Twins team should be "buyers"

Even if adding a piece of two resulted in winning the division, what is that really worth?

This roster has way too many holes in it to do anything in the playoffs. Baker’s as close as we come to a #1. We don’t have a #2 or #3; we have big trouble with middle relief; and there’s nothing about this offense which remotely suggests it would stand up to playoff pitching.

There’s a significant amount of retooling which has to be done. There aren’t enough prospects in the farm system – at least, not enough who are going to show up soon (witness the record in Rochester) – to justify selling prospects to try to ‘win now’.

Do the best with what we have & make a plan – a real plan – in the offseason.

by BD57 on Aug 2, 2011 7:10 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

I agree

The Twins have never been able to do much in the playoffs. This year they are 8-19 against the AL East.

by Emma2011 on Aug 2, 2011 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed as well

But you’ll be accused of internet ranting here shortly.

by Shawn Gillogly on Aug 2, 2011 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

OHMYGOSH!

"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
"There is absolutely no connection between me, Emo Phillips, and 'emo' music." -Emo Phillips

by less cowbell, more 'neau on Aug 2, 2011 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

just dial the vitriolic rhetoric down a bit.

is that so hard?

I don't know, but I've been told it's hard to run with the weight of gold,
'the other hand, I've heard it said, it's just as hard with the weight of lead.

by montanatwinsfan on Aug 2, 2011 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

The truth is...

The trade didn’t happen.

None of us even know for sure if any of these discussions ever even happened.

The Span-Storen trade story may have been miscommunicated, misunderstood, or flat out not been real.

And here I am reading a ton of posts about how Bill Smith is stupid, incompetent, etc., for this trade that never happened. It may have never even been on the table.

Calm down, kiddos.

by Boot on Aug 2, 2011 11:39 PM EDT reply actions  

Never been on the Table?

Come on, are your serious? There were plenty of signs that the Nationals were on board with trying to deal for Denard Span and tried to fleece the Twins for the second year in a row. That led to a fully stressful situation over the weekend because Jim Bowden basically said that the deal was pretty much done. Losing to the A’s didn’t help and to make matters worse, some members faced further stress. For all that matters, the rumors likely started when the Nationals were repeatedly hung up by Bill Smith himself.

I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew

by Jessy S on Aug 3, 2011 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

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