Twins Fans: Casilla BAD - Mauer GOOD
by Batsquid on Feb 17, 2012 8:45 AM EST
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PrintThis is an opinion I welcome your response
I have been a Twins Fan for as long as I can remember. When I think about the past-present- and future I cant even fathom why the Twins would tender this guy a contract. The fans are sick of him. Case in Point- I was at the local bowling alley the other night and believe it or not a common theme - is Twins Baseball. Of the 10 or so guys joined in the conversation 1 supported the signing of Alexi Casilla and only under the auspice that there probably wasnt anyone better available. Most of the guys thought Casilla's signing was ridiculous - a waste of money that could have been spent elsewhere.
As Twins Fans go - most will say that after Joe Mauer's abysmal season last year- that the Twins overpaid and that the signing was a horrible mistake - Signing Joe Mauer the best for hitter for average catcher in baseball to a long-term contract was NOT a mistake- Joe makes a difference , At the time it was a great move for the Twins -across the board- Statistically, Timelineness in his career , and for the community- He puts butts in seats. We are disappointed and how his injury ladened season went which has to be questioned - but he will be back. Most Twins fans look at Nishioka as a qualified failure- this less than 250 at bats into his major league career- I get that we were looking for Ichiro and we got Willie Norwood.. but I personally feel he is a waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better risk than Casilla.
The point is as I am excited by the signing of Ryan Doumit and some of the other steps taken to prepare our team for 2012. I am tired of Casilla -a 3rd tier 2nd/ss that has a 3 week window of good play and then tanks at key moments and really is a career minor leaguer. If you look at what he does in winter ball its spectacular- when the regular season comes he is a waste of space. Could the Twins have spent that million dollars in a better way - Absolutely - As fans we need to focus our IRE on this kind of signing - look at the potential we have with other players and I am sorry dump Casilla as fast as possible.
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It's actually hard to spend a million bucks productively in baseball
A million bucks is chicken scratch, it’s barely above the minimum salary. It’s really hard to get anyone worth a darn for just a million bucks.
by DJL44 on Feb 17, 2012 10:07 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Stupid Casilla tanking at key moments
I don't think he's had a clutch hit in his entire life.
"It happened in the moment, and it happened." - Carlos Gomez
Yeah, game 163 of 2009...
and his other five walk off career hits don’t count for anything. We should totally spend that 1.3 on one tenth of Nishioka’s salary.
Well if you can take a poll, let's take another poll right here
Who supports the Twins signing Casilla for 1 year @ $1.38 M?
Me
Why wouldn’t you? The MI was a disaster last year, and when healthy, he was the best one.
+1
Compare it to the $4 million we paid Punto and it’s bargain basement. When healthy, he’s better than Punto in almost every way.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Except Punto makes better pre-game slushies for Morneau
"It happened in the moment, and it happened." - Carlos Gomez
Well that's a pretty interesting statement:
When healthy, he’s better than Punto in almost every way.
I don't know, but I've been told it's hard to run with the weight of gold,
'the other hand, I've heard it said, it's just as hard with the weight of lead.
by montanatwinsfan on Feb 17, 2012 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
Do you want me to count the ways
1. Better contact,
2 Better speed,
3. More power,
4. Better arm,
5. Better fundamentals (as odd as that sounds from a guy Gardy once called “Thing 2,” but Punto is a 0 on a scale of 0-10 for fundamentals, Casilla is a 3.)
Punto had better range, and a better walk rate. That’s about it.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Yes
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
by cmathewson on Feb 18, 2012 10:32 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
World Series Champion Nick Punto is the King of Grit
But ’Lexi shows flashes of Grit now and then too.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
"Tell Gardy there's nobody around to protect him now." Ozzie Guillen
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Feb 18, 2012 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
Great
So, basically, he’s better in the less important ways. Everyone who has ever looked at defense has found that range is far, far more important than arm strength (and Punto’s is waaaaaay better than Casilla’s), and the differences in contact and power are so marginal (3 points in BA, 10 points in SLG) that Punto’s ability to walk is far more valuable.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
You're right
I let my disgust at his playing time situation get the better of my judgement. Here’s what I should have said. “We paid Punto $4 million for a couple of WAR at about the same age/experience level, which Casilla is at now. Paying Casilla $1.3 for 1 WAR (his projection as an everyday player) seems more than reasonable.”
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
On this we agree
Casilla’s not overpaid (and I will agree with you that Punto was), and tendering him to a contract and signing him for what he’s getting is a no-brainer, especially given the Twins’ lack of other options.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
I would
He’s worth the risk for the little money it cost to sign him. This is a make/break year for Casilla. He’s shown signs of being an everyday major league player. Hopefully he can stay healthy and show he can produce over a whole season (or most of it).
Besides… who else are you going to sign for that kind of money that has better upside?
Me
"Baseball, it is said, is only a game. True. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole in Arizona." ~George F. Will
me :)
I kind of love lexi. I know he’s not exactly our best player, but always liked him, always will
"The problem with baseball is that it is not played year round" -Gaylord Perry
by twinsgirl197 on Feb 17, 2012 9:46 PM EST up reply actions
+1
he’s scrappy and streaky but unlike Punto, he occassionally can play offense. I agree, he is not the best player on the team but he is worth 1.3 million/1yr and a spot on the roster.
I will always love Alexi Casilla
As a true Twins fan, and not just come casual sports watcher, Alexi will always get a ‘get out of jail’ free card from me. I want him to do well of course, but he doesn’t need to do anything else to earn my fandom.
"It happened in the moment, and it happened." - Carlos Gomez
I say Yes
I think he deserves one more shot to prove that he is an everyday, at least major league average infielder.
"live EVERY week like it's shark week" Tracy Jordan(30 Rock)
by carlpavanosmoustache on Feb 17, 2012 1:04 PM EST reply actions
I'm actually a Casilla fan
in the sense that I still think he’s capable of more than he’s shown. At some point, he has to show it, but he’s a worthwhile gamble at this point, since there is no clear upgrade available.
Casilla actually was pretty good last year from May-July, with a line of .281/.342/.408. That’s solid production if he could keep that up for a whole season, considering it would have put him 11th in the majors among qualified 2B last year.
I got an Alexi Casilla shirt for Christmas
I love it.
"It happened in the moment, and it happened." - Carlos Gomez
Resigning Casilla was a no-brainer.
"I wanted to do it because it's fun, it's fun to do bad things and drive into a car."
by PurplePeopleEaters on Feb 17, 2012 1:42 PM EST reply actions
Not really sure what the argument is.
Just kind of: “He’s bad!”?
His wRC+ was 95 last year. Only 5% below average production from a guy playing average middle infield defense for a low salary with team control left? There’s not a lot wrong with that. And his bat was actually better than league average in 2010 in limited playing time, shocking though that may be (103 wRC+, 20 wRC in 170 PAs).
I hardly love the guy, but Nishioka looked like a guy who should be in AA, not a struggling big leaguer: that’s some extreme risk you’re taking on. I’m not for a second going to guarantee he’s worthless this year, but I’d bet a whole bunch of money he’s going to be pretty bad.
You can probably listen to 10 average Twins “fans” talk for three hours and come away knowing less than when you started. Most fans have no idea how to evaluate player performance aside from the super-obvious and far less understanding of how roster and payroll construction work. (Same goes for average fans of most ballclubs, but it is worse when things are in a more-than-less bandwagon-y state, as they’ve been for the Twins for a while now.)
Agree that average "fans"
wouldn’t look at WAR in a vacuum and conclude “DFA Cuddyer”.
by That'sWhatSheSaid on Feb 19, 2012 11:13 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Wow, one year later and you're still at the same straw man.
I used WAR as a numerical means to point out how much his lackluster 2010 bat was offset by his ever-so-rangey defense and asked whether the Twins would EVER cut him given continued decline. (Recall that he had precious little daylight separating him from replacement-level performance and was entering his age 32 season.) Happily his bat came around and it wasn’t an issue.
by tobynotjason on Feb 19, 2012 2:54 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
more-than-less bandwagon-y state
Hmm. If I am parsing that correctly, you’re saying average Twins fans are drinking the Flavoraid and riding the bandwagon. I’m sure there’s a portion of fans who are. But when Reusse predicts basement every year, Souhan hardly ever has a positive thing to say about the local team, Hartman waffles between absolute love and disgust, and Sansevere focuses on the negatives, it’s hard to believe the bandwagon is all that full. Couple that with mostly poor beat writing (with the exception of Joe C.) that pretty much amplifies Gardy’s negativity, and the bandwagon is even less full.
I might have agreed with you in 2010. But I haven’t heard a lot of positive comments from casual fans in over a year.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
I haven't read anything on the Strib site that hasn't been linked to in a longtime, but take you at your word.
I’m referring to my inherently subjective observation that seemingly everybody in Minneapolis is now a “giant Twins fan”, which was hardly the case 10 years ago. Again, this is just my personal experience living in the same two parts of the same city for 19 years and having witnessed wholesale ebbs and flows in the public’s interest in baseball. More broadly, just look at the fact that Target Field was sold out for two straight years, filled in significant part with people there “for the experience” than because they’re actually hardcore baseball fans.
To be sure: I am NOT at all referring to the outlook/optimism/etc. of the fan base. Rather, I was referring to the mere EXISTENCE of a larger-than-historically-usual (urban) fan base. Does that make sense? Basically I’m saying: if the Twins don’t contend again for 5 years, there won’t be nearly as many bowling alley conversations to cite. However, if you do hear one, chances are it will be more informed, on average, than the 2012 (or 2010) version.
by tobynotjason on Feb 19, 2012 3:09 PM EST up reply actions
That's funny...
Nick Punto played 7 seasons in MN. He had a WAR of 6.8 over that span, essentially a WAR of 1 a year.
Alexi Cassilla has played 6 seasons in MN and he’s compiled a WAR of 0.2 over that span.
He was essentially a replacement player.
(Nick Punto had 2707 AB’s, Casilla had 1438 AB’s, just over half the PT that Punto had)
I thought this was an argument about which was better, and according to the stats, Nick Punto is clearly a better player than Alexi Casilla.
Nishi is bad, I def agree. But Punto>>>Casilla.
I didn't say anything about nor address Nick Punto.
Above my comment (which you replied to) there was a separate thread re: Punto.
Again: Casilla’s bat has been surprisingly good the last two years in limited PAs. He’s hit about like Punto in 2006 and 2008 rate-wise, and Punto was a valuable asset those seasons. Punto had a better glove, but also an off-the-charts infuriation %.
by tobynotjason on Feb 19, 2012 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
A bowling alley poll
Somehow proves your point that it was a bad signing?
He’s inconsistent and not superb, but he’s worth the 1+ mil. (see first comment by DJL44)
by Jordan Seiffert on Feb 17, 2012 4:36 PM EST reply actions
ME TOO, Nishi?????
Casilla sooooooo much better than Nishi, seriously.
"I ain't never thrown an illegal pitch, trouble is, sometimes I throw a pitch never seen before by this generation." Satchel Paige
10 Twins fans at the bowling alley...
Do not speak for a fan base.
I’m not exactly sure what point you’re trying to make here. Kind of sounds like complaining for the sake of complaining… What better player could the Twins have gotten for 1.3m?
Casilla for 1.3m is not overpaying him by any stretch.
"Baseball, it is said, is only a game. True. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole in Arizona." ~George F. Will
I agree on all but the "any stretch"...
I think that they would have won the arbitration hearing. So, to say “by any stretch” is a stretch.
I think it's actually a pretty good deal.
I mean, they paid Punto more than that didn’t they?
(not that I didn’t love Punto!)
"It happened in the moment, and it happened." - Carlos Gomez
Next week's topic
What the guys at the barbershop think of Francisco Liriano….
by DJL44 on Feb 17, 2012 11:27 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I'm guessing middle school not barber shop or bowling alley.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
"Tell Gardy there's nobody around to protect him now." Ozzie Guillen
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Feb 18, 2012 12:53 AM EST up reply actions
What the people in line at Lund's think about Justin Morneau?
"It happened in the moment, and it happened." - Carlos Gomez
by myjah on Feb 18, 2012 4:58 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
What the guys at the curling rink think about Brad Radke?
by ColossusOfRhode on Feb 18, 2012 6:20 AM EST up reply actions
I'm sure they all love Radke at the curling rink!
"It happened in the moment, and it happened." - Carlos Gomez
What Mustache aficionados think of Pavano?
my hero.
by twinssniwt on Feb 18, 2012 2:08 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
What guys from St. Paul (who go to Bowling alley's) think of Mauer?
Oh, yeah you bet ya, he is wholesome and refreshingly midwestern. (Truthfully that is what I think of him. Those damn milk ads work.)
What local lumberjacks think of Jim Thome?
(still a Twin to me…)
"Baseball, it is said, is only a game. True. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole in Arizona." ~George F. Will
You, my friend
Get a rec
"My life has no purpose, no direction, no aim, no meaning, and yet I’m happy. I can’t figure it out. What am I doing right?" Snoopy(Charlie Brown's dog, not a rapper)
by carlpavanosmoustache on Feb 18, 2012 3:07 PM EST up reply actions
Certainly an interesting player
Casilla has played some great baseball and he has played some of the worst baseball I have seen in a Twins’ uni. He has walked to the brink on several occasions and managed to rescue himself each time.
He has a very good skill set. We’ve seen a high number of outstanding defensive plays and on those he’s shown outstanding range, a fine arm and Casilla has had offensive streaks where he’s hit in the clutch, driving in a lot of runs, reached base frequently and even added in some extra-base sock. He’s always been a good base stealer, but of course he has to get on. He’s also had slumps where he can’t make a routine defensive play, makes mental errors, and either strikes out or hits a weak roller.
So consistency and focus has to be an issue for Casilla. Another issue has become injuries. He’s had disabling injuries to his thumb, his elbow and last year hit the DL twice with hamstring issues. Casilla will be 28 this year and I don’t know how many more walks to the brink the Twins FO and field staff can handle.
Given his (still low) salary and the options behind Casilla, it makes sense to go with him again this year. Maybe he’ll put it together but with each passing year the chance of it happening becomes more remote.
by Alexi Casilla All-Star on Feb 19, 2012 7:15 PM EST reply actions
He has the athletic skills
He just doesn’t make adjustments quickly enough
I feel like its watching a merry-go-round
I think you make some good points. Casilla is athletic, and for a period of about 6 weeks was even a catalyst. The issue we had with him was based mostly on his inconsistency, and the point I was trying to make – why pay him when you can pay someone else less and get more. I think that is where the arguments for Nick Punto come in – or players like him as I read the posts the instant comparison is to Punto – In my mind I think of Casilla like a slightly better fielding Bobby Randall from the 70s or more like Lombardozzi was clearly a good fielder once in awhile – a good hitter on occassion – but when the end of the season game around he still had 10 errors and a .225 batting average. and some really boneheaded plays. You make a good case for this year and I guess we are stuck with him.. I just wish the Twins had brought in someone else.
Alexi Casilla is Luis Rivas wearing a convincing mask
That said, he’s a fine bargain at $1.38M and is probably the team’s best option at second to start the season.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
Rivas stayed on the field
He also rarely had hot streaks. Casilla is streaky and injury prone.
We paid Rivas more than $1.38M in 2004 and 2005
As said at the very top of the thread, a million dollars doesn’t buy what it used to. It didn’t even buy that much several years ago.
Rather have Rivas
I would rather have Rivas- sorry this one I cant agree with I think Rivas would be a a huge upgrade to Casilla – The Twins could have gotten Adam Kennedy for less like 800k—
Love The Picture
A huge Batman Fan- I appreciate the Joker pic- – but YES .. I am serious.. I think its good discussion for Twins fans- its one of those things that I we will look at in the revised Terry Ryan era and judge him by.. I guess we will find out.
BATsquid
Believe it or not
But this isn’t quite as absurd as it may seem on the surface. At first I agreed that I’d rather have Kennedy over Casilla (well, maybe a slightly younger Kennedy) but I thought Rivas over Casilla was a dubious desire. However, if you look at their offensive stats, such as wOBA, Rivas ranks better than Casilla. If you’re okay with using UZR and Total Zone for defense, though, Rivas loses a ton of his value. Kennedy’s still the best defender, but Casilla is rated as slightly below average, whereas Rivas was terrible. Here, let’s play everyone’s favorite game. Guess which one is Rivas’ career triple slash and which is Casilla (even though I gave a hint a couple sentences ago).
Player A: .252/.310/.337
Player B: .257/.303/.377
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it." - Ferris Bueller.
by Andrew Bryz-Gornia on Feb 24, 2012 1:05 AM EST up reply actions
I don't think we have a good read on Casilla
He’s never had a full healthy year in which he wasn’t dicked around by the manager. When he has plays everyday and is healthy, he is an upgrade over Rivas.
I think people forget how horrible Rivas was. He was not that bad on offense. But he was a tree stump on defense. It looked like he was running in sand. His career dWAR is -24. He had two years of double digit negatives in UZR.
Casilla is not a great defender, but he’s at least within striking distance of a positive UZR.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Just dumping Casilla makes no sense to me.
You may not like him as a player, but he still has another year of arbitration next year, so 1, the Twins would risk losing two years of value if he manages to be more consistent and avoid injury. And 2, with the Twins moving Plouffe to the outfield, Hughes having injury questions, and, as others have stated, Nishioka looking over-matched, the Twins would have to spend the savings on acquiring another free agent. And for 1.4 million you’re basically looking at Jeff Keppinger, Ryan Theriot, or similar players. Guys that are older, have shown a little more consistency, but no more upside than Casilla.
At this point
I would actually rather have Casilla over Mauer if I had to choose! No made up leg injuries for him to take long vacations!
Seriously though, the leg weakness was a ploy to cover for his suspension due to being busted for taking PEDs. Maybe Mauer is back on the roids now, he did gain weight.
He might even hit a half dozen homers at TF this year! lol
"bobpuller" – arch-enemy of all SSSers and a twinktown troll. There are many meanings to this phrase and none of them are good.
That is assinine
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
by cmathewson on Feb 21, 2012 8:28 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Sorry guys
Don’t ban me just because I said something many people find stupid and disagree with,
"bobpuller" – arch-enemy of all SSSers and a twinktown troll. There are many meanings to this phrase and none of them are good.
It's more than that
It’s slander.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Fair enough,
I shouldn’t have stated it as fact. And it’s libel if it is published, not slander.
Point taken, though.
"bobpuller" – arch-enemy of all SSSers and a twinktown troll. There are many meanings to this phrase and none of them are good.
He should be banned
His comments here are obviously stupid and disagreeable, and made just to rile people and elicit an angry response. AKA being a troll.
I hoped we were done with him, his profile page says he’s a WSox fan.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
"Tell Gardy there's nobody around to protect him now." Ozzie Guillen
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Feb 21, 2012 5:53 PM EST up reply actions
Congrats
the first time I’ve ever flagged a comment. I like the little ‘flagged as troll’ bit that pops up.
you know, that flag works pretty well
seeing as he identifies himself in his signature as “a twinkietown troll”…. if you know you’re a troll what’s the point of still trolling? I never understood that
"The problem with baseball is that it is not played year round" -Gaylord Perry
by twinsgirl197 on Feb 22, 2012 10:21 PM EST up reply actions
It's a 1 year deal...
it comes off the books next year – who cares if we paid him $800k or $1.5M? The roster is complete at this point. Did we sacrifice getting a premium FA because of this? No.
twitter@al_damlo
Complaining about Casilla's contract is asinine
If you don’t like it, it shows two things, in my opinion.
1. You don’t get how arbitration works in baseball.
2. You’re severely undervaluing Casilla.
Look, you certainly can get Casilla’s production out of a cheaper player, but you’d only be saving about $800,000 (league minimum is around $480,000 for 2012, I believe). Arguing that Casilla is “not worth” $1.3 million is a little ridiculous. You may argue that this extra $800,000 could have allowed them to sign one more free agent reliever, but I disagree. The Twins have 67 players in camp right now, and by my count there are about 15 relievers competing for 3 open bullpen spots. The Twins believe in what they already have.
By the way, if you look at wOBA, Casilla was basically average offensively both in 2010 and 2011. Paying $1.3 million for an average offensive player that plays middle infield is NOT bad.
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it." - Ferris Bueller.
by Andrew Bryz-Gornia on Feb 24, 2012 1:12 AM EST reply actions
Its not the contract its the Player
I respect your opinion however- my point is more than just is contract – its the idea that the Twins arent looking at a Orlando Hudson – JJ Hardy tandem- They are looking at Casilla and Jamie Carroll- Casilla has to be the legs in that tandem- he has to be great- and hes not… you can certainly argue that point- but who else could you have gotten for that money Adam Kennedy, Cristian Guzman easily for less- and only a few years older- 2011 is an aberration remember he was hitting .170 thru the first 40-50 games of the season went on a terror for 6 weeks and got his average to respectability and the got hurt – for the most part he was horrid at the plate- and his fielding sprinkled with great plays was average at best. My other point is that my group of pals are sick of him – its not just the WAR – I know what that is- its the player in general- As far as wOBA – I am not looking for Ryne Sandberg- I am looking for anyone other than Alexei Casilla – One last point – Didnt you feel like when we went from Hudson-Hardy to Nishioka-Casilla – we were settling for Casilla? I am saying at the beginning of last season – I think Nishioka disappointed on many levels – but Casilla was superbly inconsistent and that killed us as much as Nishioka’s issues. My other point is that I would rather risk taking a guy who made a huge number of adjustments last year – in Nishioka as my starter that put a fan Pariah like Casilla out there every day.
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