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The Twins' "Budget"

This has been bugging me all off season, and then even more as Edwin Jackson signed a one year deal and the Twins have watched reliever after reliever sign elsewhere.

There is absolutely no excuse for the Twins to cut their budget in the 3rd year of their new stadium. While Joe Sheehan uses the Royals as a specific example, this absolutely applies to the Twins as well:

"The Kansas City Royals, like the other teams in the smallest markets in baseball, collect money from ticket sales and local media rights. They also get equal shares of nationally generated revenue, such as for Sunday Night Baseball or the postseason or the All-Star Game, even if they rarely if ever show up in those slots. On top of that, they get free money just for existing. Yet the Royals' 2011 payroll (just north of $38 million, according to Cot's Contracts) was lower than it was in any year since 2005, low enough to nearly guarantee a profit if no one showed up at the park.

The conversation about these matters tends to use a language --- "what we can afford", "in our market", "fiscal responsibility" -- that clouds what is happening, which is that spectacularly wealthy men, women and companies can invest in their product, but they often choose not to. The fact is, everybody who owns a major league team -- when MLB isn't making spectacularly bad choices about who gets to own a team, anyway -- is wealthy enough to make investments in the product that can improve the win-loss record without sweating whether the team will have positive cash-flow in the short term. The financial benefits of talent investment tend to accrue in future years for one -- a good team in Year One brings people to the park in Year Two, and so on -- while every team appreciates over time."

http://cnnsi.com/2012/writers/joe_sheehan/02/06/owners.money/index.html?eref=sihp&sct=hp_wr_a3

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….I don’t know what you are saying.

by Brady Eyestone on Feb 6, 2012 11:55 PM EST reply actions  

I'm saying that the Pohlads

Are awful owners. They care more about making a profit than winning. This is not true of Illitch. Arte Moreno is another good example of an owner willing to spend to win.

The Twins just got a new stadium at taxpayer expense and they are unwilling to spend a few extra million on the margins (I’m really not even talking about Jackson, but to say the Twins couldn’t afford a 1 year deal for him is BS). As Flip 27 pointed out below, would it really bankrupt the Twins to get another right handed reliever and maybe a competent bench bat?

by TBird41 on Feb 7, 2012 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Last Friday, the Twins has a Q & A "Town Hall" where Dave St. Peter addressed the question of reducing payroll directly.

Basically, he gave 3 reasons: #1 – The Twins stretched above their payroll in 2011, essentially borrowing from 2012. #2 – The Twins have to set aside payroll to sign all their draft picks this year (they’ll have 5 of the top 75, which chould make up a significant amount of money). # 3 – Attendance was down in 2011, resulting in reduced revenue to spend on 2012.

I’m not saying I like the organization’s lack of foresight, but I think these are all legitimate points. I remember hearing (pre-2011) that the Twins would be willing to stretch their payroll for one year in order to go after a pennant.

That said, there’s no reason the Twins shouldn’t be willing to spend an extra few million this winter to add another decent bullpen arm and a cheap/experienced hitter to fill the Jim Thome role. I don’t like counting on Zumaya and Morneau to be healthy in order to be a competitive team, especially after last year.

[#2 North Central] Minnesota RollerGirls (1-0) vs [#6 East] Montreal Roller Derby (0-0) - Sat 3/3/2012 in the Roy Wilkins Auditorium, St. Paul MN. mnrollergirls.com

by Flip27 on Feb 7, 2012 9:27 AM EST reply actions  

The Twins dumped some payroll at the end of the year

1) They saved $1.5M trading Delmon Young and Jim Thome. If this was truly an issue they should have had the damned fire sale. Why in the world did they stretch their budget to lose 99 games?! This would be a good reason to fire Bill Smith.

2) We have heard for years that major league payroll and the draft come out of separate budgets. The draft just got cheaper – all players have to sign for slot.

3) Attendance was down by 55,000 people. That’s not enough to explain a $15M drop in payroll, especially when season ticket renewals are flat.

by DJL44 on Feb 7, 2012 9:48 AM EST up reply actions  

There are good responses to all of these
1) They saved $1.5M trading Delmon Young and Jim Thome. If this was truly an issue they should have had the damned fire sale. Why in the world did they stretch their budget to lose 99 games?! This would be a good reason to fire Bill Smith.

Obviously, they didn’t know at the beginning of the season that they were going to lose 99 games, or they wouldn’t have stretched payroll. They considered a fire sale (although really, their only tradeable assets were Cuddyer and Kubel, maybe $7M worth of contract between the two of them) but were within five games of first place at the trade deadline and decided against it.

2) We have heard for years that major league payroll and the draft come out of separate budgets. The draft just got cheaper – all players have to sign for slot.

Players don’t have to sign for slot – instead, the team is given a cap on the total they can spend based on their draft picks’ positions, so they can go over slot for a few players as long as they’re able to under slot for some others.

Anyway, whether they come out of separate budgets is irrelevant from an overall team finance perspective – it’s still money that the franchise has to spend. If you have to pay $2000 to fix your car, that doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t reconsider buying a big-screen TV just because “it comes out of a separate budget”.

3) Attendance was down by 55,000 people. That’s not enough to explain a $15M drop in payroll, especially when season ticket renewals are flat.

Like cmathewson said below, they’re anticipating that ticket revenue will be down overall next year because the team was bad (and might not be all that great this year). They didn’t see attendance drop off last year until it was established that the team sucked, but the dropoff will be much quicker this year if they are bad again.

All that said, there is a pretty good counterpoint to all these, which is “If payroll is half of revenue, then a $100M payroll implies that revenue is still $40M more than when the payroll was $80M, so you can spare an extra million bucks for freaking Michael Wuertz, who is from Minnesota for crying out loud.”

"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

by BeefMaster on Feb 7, 2012 12:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Another round

1) By June they had a clue that the team was not a playoff team. They also had an opportunity to deal Cuddyer at the waiver trade deadline and passed.

2) If players don’t sign for slot now they don’t sign.

3) I agree completely that they can afford Wuertz and a bench bat for an additional $1M over what they’re going to be paying a rookie.

by DJL44 on Feb 7, 2012 12:29 PM EST up reply actions  

The team played great in June

People seem to forget that. The Twins actually played good baseball for 3-4 weeks. And the starting pitching was lights out for a good part of that span. Which makes the other 5 months even more brutal considering we still managed 99 loses. Considering the teams history and potential for finally getting health, it looked like the team might actually contend in a week division. Detroit was very mediocre until they got hot in September.

by .mnqwerd on Feb 7, 2012 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

The pitchers were over their head

They had a good June but nobody expected them to keep pitching like that all season.

by DJL44 on Feb 7, 2012 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Draft and Slot

Even if they sign all their players for under slot, they are still spending WAYYY more than previous drafts because of the number of picks and how high many of the picks are within the first 75 picks or so.

The pool for teams this year will range from 4.5 M (last picking team) to 11.5 M (Astros). So the Twins will be shelling out close to 11.5 M and spent 5.9 M last year (~5.6M difference).

by nick5253 on Feb 7, 2012 4:09 PM EST up reply actions  

The 2011 season

Basically we were trash in April and May. We then improved in June and early July, but not enough to catch Detroit or put us over 500. In fact, we were seven games back and at 47-54 at the end of the day on July 24th. TK said on Television, that the Twins would have had to go 8-4 to think of the team as buyers, but we went 6-6 and were sellers. For the most part, I would have given up Michael Cuddyer to anybody that was willing to pay for him and there were suitors between the 24th and 31st.

BTW, according to baseball reference we only won 16 more games following July 24th slate.

I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew
I would like to see Dallas vs the Giants on Thanksgiving, Make it happen NFL!

by Jessy S on Feb 8, 2012 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

It has been said man times...

Smith shopped these guys and didn’t like what he was hearing. Why trade a guy for a bag of balls.

by .mnqwerd on Feb 12, 2012 6:51 PM EST up reply actions  

If you believe the rumors

They said that Cuddyer and Kubel were not available for trade while Bill Smith spent a week trying to rid this club of Denard Span.

I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew
I would like to see Dallas vs the Giants on Thanksgiving, Make it happen NFL!

by Jessy S on Feb 13, 2012 2:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Some of this is predictive

They were down 55,000 tickets sold, but those of us who went to Target Field towards the end of the year know that a lot of the tickets they sold were not used. Teams pay attention to unused tickets in their forecasts. If you have 10,000 unused tickets on average, you can expect a commensurate drop in sales the next year. Most of the unused tickets were purchased prior to August.

Comparing the Twins to the Royals is a bit of a canard. The budget from 2009 to 2010 increased by 30%. From 2010 to 2011, it increased by 5%, some of which was recovered towards the end of the year. So lets say that was a 4% net. That’s a 34% increase. This year, we will reduce payroll by 10%. So our net payroll increase in the new stadium is 24%.

The Royals payroll went down after Kansas City spent 3/4 of what Hennepin County spent to renovate Kaufmann. That’s not even comparable at all.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Feb 7, 2012 10:27 AM EST reply actions  

They were down because they SUCKED in August

If they’re a .500 ballclub those folks will show up.

I was surprised to NOT hear them say that missing the playoffs cost them a chunk of change. 2 playoff games are worth $10M.

by DJL44 on Feb 7, 2012 10:58 AM EST up reply actions  

Royals aren't a great comp

for the Twins, I’ll give you that (neither are the Marlins) but the Pohlads care more about the budget than they do about winning. I’m not even arguing about whether they should have signed Jackson—they should sign another RH reliever.

Here’s the other thing though—signing Jackson actually could have helped this team a lot. Suddenly, you have some excitement about the upcoming season (the Twins sign a real FA!), you have another good pitcher who might keep the team competitive (giving fans a reason to come out) and worst case scenario, you can trade him at the deadline. That’s the kind of thinking Sheehan is arguing should be going on in baseball, but its not—instead most teams look at their revenue projections, set a budget so they are guaranteed a profit and then work within that constraint. As he said, these teams aren’t going broke if they don’t turn a profit every year. Taking a risk or two might pay off (Jackson’s contract would be paid for by a playoff spot) and engenders good will among the fans.

Also, I’m pretty sure you can’t really add / subtract percentages like that, though I understand your point.

by TBird41 on Feb 7, 2012 12:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Signing 1 year free agents only has to cost 1/2 the contract

Free agents can be dealt to contenders if you do it correctly.

by DJL44 on Feb 7, 2012 12:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Your POINT is?

This was their lineup in August:

Revere
Tolbert
Cuddyer (injured)
Valencia
Tosoni
Hughes
Plouffe
Nishioka
Butera

That’s a AAA lineup. Also, the only healthy starter was Pavano.

My POINT is, they will have a .500 club with what they have on the roster right now. And, fans will come back. But they can’t plan on fans coming back and filling Target Field until they see a .500 club for a couple of months. Until then, they need to stay within their revenues. Twins fans are fickle. This very post is exhibit A.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Feb 7, 2012 1:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Chicken or Egg Problem

Are Twins fans fickle or are they less willing to support a team that is more content to count its profit then try to win.

A real free agent addition (not the Willingham for Cuddyer swap) might actually get fans to the park early on. The Twins have resigned players, but they haven’t brought in a big free agent (I understand that Jackson isn’t exactly Albert Pujols in terms of name recognition, but he’d be up there in terms of biggest FA signings for the Twins). They are also unwilling to spend another million on a reliever so they aren’t relying on Joel Zumaya to stay healthy.

Also, are you really resorting to the “you’re not a real fan” argument? I can’t be unhappy with an ownership group unwilling to spend money to improve their team after paying tax dollars to build them a stadium?

by TBird41 on Feb 7, 2012 1:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Are we following the same team?

I think we won the division 6 out of 9 years without signing a “real” free agent. Come to think of it, when have we ever signed a “real” free agent? Chili Davis? Signed late for cheap. Jack Morris? Was another reclamation project.

The total profit from this team over the course of the Pohlad’s era = -100M. They lost 15M a year through the 90s.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Feb 7, 2012 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

That's an interesting line of baloney

Of course the total appreciation of the value of the team over those years is $300M. I still don’t believe they lost money.

by DJL44 on Feb 7, 2012 3:03 PM EST up reply actions  

So you're accusing them of fraud?

It’s all in their public disclosures. I get that some of that is creative accounting. But they were not making money for all of Carl Pohlad’s tenure. They made money in 2010. That’s about it. So the business of pocketing taxpayer money is a bigger line of baloney.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Feb 7, 2012 4:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Not showing a profit I can believe

Why would they want to pay taxes on profit? They might even be able to use “losses” on the team to cover other gains. The appreciation of the investment is in team value and that’s all taxed at a lower rate.

by DJL44 on Feb 7, 2012 5:20 PM EST up reply actions  

You do pay taxes, don't you?

I’m quite sure you understand the difference between showing a profit and making a profit. How to offset gains? You are a bright man, i know you do. There is also the issue of the net worth of the team at time of purchase versus selling value minus inflation. Carl Pohlad didn’t really lose money with the Twins(an investment). By that arguement, you lost money every month you make your house payment. Of course, what you really did is build EQUITY (value) in your home(s) much like Pohlad did with the Twins. I believe that is the point djl44 was making. However, there is a point of diminishing returns in regards to payroll expenditure and your wins/ profit/team value. I think Carl Pohlad was an intelligent guy and made good choices with his small market team.

by chatter on Feb 11, 2012 11:37 AM EST up reply actions  

With the exception of contraction

Here’s the thing. He was a billionaire. He could have invested in anything. He chose to invest in something with relatively low gains in equity and regular losses on the balance sheet because he cared about the Twins in Minnesota. Eventually, after beating his head against the wall for 16 years, he tried to pull the plug. Fortunately, Minnesotans saved him from himself. And his family helped him rebuild his faith in the cause before he died. I don’t think he ever quite got there, but having approval from the Legislature and governor for a new stadium sure helped.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Feb 11, 2012 11:52 AM EST up reply actions  

Exactly!

He was a billionaire. He invested in many things, the Twins were not his most lucrative investment, obviously. However, there are fringe benefits of owning a baseball team that are not available with other investments. If you had the finances to be able to afford to tie up money in owning the Minnesota Twins and just break even at the time of sale, wouldn’t you do it? i would in a heartbeat! I love baseball. What a thrill it would be, to me.

by chatter on Feb 11, 2012 12:01 PM EST up reply actions  

There are tons of ancillary benefits to owning a baseball games

Many a business deal has been completed sitting in a luxury box with a client.

by DJL44 on Feb 11, 2012 4:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

But the Twins ownership most likely isn’t there. It is mostly small business deals getting done as well as mergers. Examples: TCI Bank agrees to fund the investment into a new hotdog; General Mills agrees to acquire Con-Agra with the Banquet foods brand being sold to Cloverdale as a merger condition.

I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew
I would like to see Dallas vs the Giants on Thanksgiving, Make it happen NFL!

by Jessy S on Feb 12, 2012 12:57 AM EST up reply actions  

Here's the rub

Carl Pohlad had a chance to get out of baseball with contraction, I don’t blame him for accepting the offer from MLB. He is a businessman and if you are going to make a profit on a team, you might as well sell even if it means no more Twins baseball. At least he was prevented from selling to MLB because of the pesky lease on the Metrodome.

I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew
I would like to see Dallas vs the Giants on Thanksgiving, Make it happen NFL!

by Jessy S on Feb 12, 2012 1:05 AM EST up reply actions  

"They lost 15M a year through the 90s."

They made 15M a year through the 90s.

See, I can invent facts too.

by USAFChief on Feb 15, 2012 9:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Define fickle as it pertains to your arguement.

You certainly have to consider the down economy is a factor in ticket sales. I think Twins fans are fairly loyal when compared to other markets. They are a small market team that does well in merchandising sales. Minnesotans have stuck with their team. If you want to see fickle fans, go to San Diego or Oakland. The pohlads and the Minnesota Twins, as an organization, are lucky to have fans like ours.

by chatter on Feb 11, 2012 11:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Attendance in the 00s was spotty every year until the team demonstrated that it was a winner

Part of it was seasonal. But I remember in 2007, attendance was at 2001 levels until July, despite the fact that the team had won the division the previous year (in dramatic fashion) and had the reigning MVP and Cy Young award winner.

Minnesota sports fans support winners. There is a small core of diehards. But most Minnesotans are bandwagon fans.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Feb 11, 2012 11:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Like everyone else, you mean?

I believe many minnesotans, as well as fans from around the world, support the Twins. They buy the shirts and ballcaps. They tune in on TV and radio. Buy the occasional tickets. Just because they didn’t sell out the dome, doesn’t mean they weren’t paying attention. I watched many games at the dome, and i must say i think having a much nicer venue in Target field will prove fans are more loyal than you think when they can afford to go. It is a great game experience, especially when compared to the dome, you know that too!

by chatter on Feb 11, 2012 12:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Right

My point was about setting the budget on expected revenue. After a 99-loss season, they can expect relatively poor ticket sales until the team demonstrates that it is a winner. The fact that 10,000 seats went empty in August and September only confirms this. If they expect to live within their means, they are right to reduce their budget this year. If they are in it before the break and attendance is unexpectedly high, they will have payroll flexibility to add what they need to make a run. It’s usually easier to acquire quality players by trade midseason when teams are rebuilding than in the offseason.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Feb 11, 2012 1:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Unless that player is a hot commodity

Not saying that this is bad, but the urge to win could end up causing somebody to get rid of a prized prospect for just two months of (insert name here). The real trick is to get in on the mid-season fire sale. That way we send off Aaron Hicks for David Wright and avoid trading Miguel Sano for Matt Cain. On the other hand, I suppose the Nationals can take Francisco Liriano for the stretch run, we will just take back Wilson Ramos, thank you very much.

I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew
I would like to see Dallas vs the Giants on Thanksgiving, Make it happen NFL!

by Jessy S on Feb 12, 2012 1:24 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree 100%

I hope the fans turn out when our pitching rebounds this year and make it an easy choice for the ownership to add a fitting piece or two if we are in contention.

by chatter on Feb 12, 2012 10:35 AM EST up reply actions  

In 2011,

All that extra money couldn’t save the Twins from a lot of injuries and a few bad trades last year.

The Twins’ payroll was more than the Royals’ and Indians’ payrolls combined, and we finished behind both of them.
The Twins outspent the Cardinals.
The Tigers went to the ALCS with close to the same payroll we have this year.
The White Sox went “all in” and came in 3rd in the AL Central.
The Rays made the Wild Card spot with the 2nd worse payroll in the MLB.
The Red Sox spent $160M and still failed to make the playoffs.

"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
"Tell Gardy there's nobody around to protect him now." Ozzie Guillen

by less cowbell, more 'neau on Feb 7, 2012 10:28 AM EST reply actions  

Exactly.

I think it can be too easy to lose perspective, sometimes.

by Jesse on Feb 7, 2012 11:34 AM EST up reply actions  

Like the fact that the taxpayers paid for the stadium?

I mean, the Twins can’t afford to sign another reliever?

by TBird41 on Feb 7, 2012 11:52 AM EST up reply actions  

The Twins can afford to sign another reliever

They have not chosen to do so, and not for monetary reasons. They apparently prefer to build from within than take up roster space with marginal upgrades.

Also, they’re not done. They still might sign that reliever. And it’s not like you need to have your roster set before spring training. You have until August to add the guys you need. Even then, you can still add guys. But if you never give your own guys a chance, you’re left constantly adding external guys with a 50/50 success rate at best.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Feb 7, 2012 1:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly

The Twins have shown repeatedly that they approach roster construction – especially in the bullpen – as fluid process. Why throw money at a volatile reliever when you could just as easily get that production from a pre-arb rookie. If, like 2011, literarlly 90% of your bullpen sucks and the rest of your team is injured, well you’re out of it anyway, save that money and look to next year. If you are that 1 piece away, add it at any point during the year. If teams are falling all over themselves to sign these guys for 1 M then you can bet they will line up to trade them in-season for a decent prospect or simply salary relief if/when they are out of it.

1 more reliever does nothing to improve the team’s chances of contending and if/when adding 1 reliever will have an impact, the FO will make that move.

by nick5253 on Feb 7, 2012 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Edit

If teams are falling all over themselves to sign these guys for 1 M

Should have read:

If teams aren’t falling all over themselves to sign these guys for 1 M

by nick5253 on Feb 7, 2012 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Comment

I’d have a lot more sympathy for the “Why spend $1M for a guy that won’t necessarily help us contend?” argument (which really does make a lot of sense) if they hadn’t spent $4M on Matt Capps.

"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

by BeefMaster on Feb 7, 2012 5:39 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

That's irrelevant

Do you (or more accurately, the state/taxpayers) have a defined level of spending or players expected for their contributions?

Had they signed Wuertz and a bench bat for $2M, in addition to everyone else in December, you’d still want them to sign someone else, because they’re not spending the same amount as last year, which has already been proven (less cowbell’s post) to not equate to success.

Free Rick. I mean, Chuck James!
No, I didn't spell Maurer wrong. But I do get asked if I'm related to Joe a lot.

by Maurer Power on Feb 7, 2012 2:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Teams need stadiums. Stadiums need public funding. Get over it.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Feb 7, 2012 2:40 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

But do cities need teams?

I like ‘em, you like ’em. On the grand list of things cities need to provide for citizens, however, I wouldn’t put professional sports at the top.

Steve Goodman lives.

by twinsbrewer on Feb 14, 2012 11:24 AM EST up reply actions  

Somewhere between education and welfare

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Feb 15, 2012 8:14 PM EST up reply actions  

This is all true

At the same time, let’s not pretend that there isn’t a correlation between team success and payroll – a high-payroll team is generally more likely to compete than a low-payroll team.

"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

by BeefMaster on Feb 7, 2012 11:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Payroll is function of revenue...

Always has been, nothing here has changed. If this team is in contention in late July they will most certainly add payroll. The idea that this team is slashing payroll is ignorant. I have heard Dave St Peter many times explain how it is more about where you end up then where you start.

by .mnqwerd on Feb 7, 2012 2:16 PM EST reply actions  

The point's valid

New stadiums aren’t about increasing team “competitiveness,” they’re about enriching owners on the public dime. Target Field and the Twins are no different, and by the time Twins fan attendance sinks back down to pre-Target Field days there will have been a lot of money made. Will there have been a championship in the meantime? Probably not. If there is, would it validate the rapacious economics of modern, taxpayer-subsidized modern sports? Probably not. But this is old news. I wish it weren’t, and I wish the majority of citizens in the majority of cities rejected the model, so this brand of highway robbery was the exception and not the norm. Yet Target Field has been built and the money is gone. Time to fight other wasteful subsidies, if one’s so inclined. And in doing so reminding others of how the promises made when stadium financing’s sought are inevitably broken is helpful. But arguing about the morality and wisdom of a done deal is effort and energy better put to use elsewhere. (We might as well be angry about the money-spigot that is Target Center.)

Keep up the passion, though . . .

Steve Goodman lives.

by twinsbrewer on Feb 14, 2012 11:25 AM EST reply actions  

What a bunch of hooey

New stadiums are like bridges and highways. They are infrastructure. Maybe you think sports are insignificant, and perhaps they are in relation to other parts of the economy. But if you provide roads, energy, water and other infrastructure to businesses all over the country in order for them to thrive, why not sports teams? And if sports are not really important in th grand scheme of things, why do you bother to root for teams?

If you want no government subsidy for anything, you can go to Africa, and see how easy it is to grow an economy without infrastructure. It is incredibly naive to think economies just happen without infrastructure. They don’t. But if you provide the infrastructure in which companies can run their factories and ship their products, they can’t get anywhere. If you don’t provide the education to train their workers, they will never even bother to try to do business in your area. In the global economy, the jobs go to the places that invest in infrastructure and education. If we don’t invest, someone else will, and we will be left without jobs.

BTW, Money spigot? Where would you spend that money? Who is to judge what is a better investment of one’s own money?

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Feb 15, 2012 10:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, that's the argument in a nutshell

Do sports stadiums increase a city’s economic growth as much as education, energy, water, roads, etc? Studies I’ve read indicate that they don’t — that, in fact, they don’t increase growth at all. And since those other expenditures you mentioned are proven to make a real difference, and there’s only so much money to be spent, then building stadiums has to be at the bottom of the priority list.

That doesn’t mean you can’t build them. Just that it has to be seen as a pure luxury purchase, once the other more valuable infrastructure needs are met. If the budget’s tight, you shouldn’t be skimping on important things for stadiums, IMO. Others may disagree and place sports above schools, which is their prerogative.

But the claims regularly made by sports teams seeking new buildings are almost all false. They DO (as the original post is mad about) generally end up keeping the extra profits more than they spend on players (after the first six-eight years or so) or reinvesting locally. Stadiums DON’T benefit the local economy as much as schools and roads. But teams keep saying stadiums will mean better teams and local growth. It’s just not a valid argument. Saying “give us cash, we’ll keep it, and it’ll be worth it because you enjoy the sport so much” would be more honest. In fact, it’s been suggested that cities would be better off if they just gave team owners their expected increase in profits and stopped building stadiums — then at least they could put the remainder of the stadium’s cost into something more productive.

Do i enjoy baseball? Sure. Now that Target Field’s been built, will I watch the Twins in it? As long as I enjoy baseball, sure (but more from home than at the ballpark since ticket prices are higher.) But if you’d handed a ballot to me and said “keep the Twins, or help kids get an education” I’d have lived with the team leaving. That’s my stance, others have theirs.

Your angry response is more intelligent than my angry responses usually are!

Steve Goodman lives.

by twinsbrewer on Feb 16, 2012 1:08 AM EST up reply actions  

I think those studies are flawed

They’re based on the assumption of conservation of capital. That is, an area will only spend what capital it has. If it spends it on sports, it won’t spend it on other things. If it doesn’t spend it on sports, it will spend it on other things. In a global economy, that assumption is false.

Capital is fluid around the globe. If the capital is not spent on a stadium or sports team, it will just as likely be spent on other investments in other countries or states. If you want an area to grow, you have to give investors reasons to invest in one area over another. Sports teams are good reasons to invest in an area. All over the country, stadiums lead to investment, where there was no investment before. Investment creates jobs.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Feb 16, 2012 8:38 AM EST up reply actions  

Citizens tend to get the benefit of water and road infrastructure

The vast majority of the benefits from sports stadiums go to the team owners.

I’m not anti-stadium but I think the taxpayers have tended to get the raw end of the deal. The owners get all the profits, the government gets all the debt. Cincinnati is drowning in stadium debt.

by DJL44 on Feb 16, 2012 10:21 AM EST up reply actions  

Fair enough

But we can say the same thing for just about every industry in this country. Take Wall Street. They relied on the government to help with infrastructure, trade agreements and deregulation. With the Fed’s backing, they made risky deals that led to the housing bubble bursting. First the Fed, then the Federal government bailed them out to keep the whole economy from collapsing. Then they foreclosed on every marginally distressed borrower across the country. They had record profits two years after failing worse than any industry has failed in US history, while the rest of us struggled. The same story is repeated in energy, food, health care and just about every other business in this country. Relative to Big Oil, Big Pharma, Big Finance, Big Media, etc., sports owners are responsible citizens.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Feb 16, 2012 10:51 AM EST up reply actions  

That doesn't make it a good idea for citizens in a referendum

It’s one more example of concentrating wealth upward. I can’t blame anyone for opposing that.

by DJL44 on Feb 16, 2012 12:04 PM EST up reply actions  

OK

I just have a problem with the double standard. People will spew vitriol at sports owners and ignore the more egregious offenders who receive corporate welfare.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Feb 16, 2012 12:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think that's the case

I think politicians ignore both because wealthy people fund their campaigns. Stadiums just get more attention. And we’re way off topic now.

Derrek Lee is still looking for work. So is Johnny Damon. The Twins don’t have a DH unless they decide to carry 3 catchers again.

by DJL44 on Feb 16, 2012 1:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd love to have Lee

And push Butera to AAA where he belongs.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Feb 16, 2012 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

If anyone has any interest in continuing this discussion

My email’s my moniker at yahoo. You’re both intelligent people with a justifiable point of view, and I’ve enjoyed reading your posts. But, hey, the stadium’s built, no healthy Twins are strong enough to hit homers out of it, and getting pumped for the new (probably quite lame) season beckons. (Or this debate could be posted as a separate thread. I like it, and I largely started it, and I’d frankly like to hear more, but SB posts aren’t the right venues for ongoing conversation, ’cuz SB has its own issues.)

Wow! Guys in a certain-colored uniform are about to play against guys in other uniforms! It sounds dumb (and it is), but dammit if it doesn’t distract me from the bigger, more depressing issues, most of the time.

Steve Goodman lives.

by twinsbrewer on Feb 17, 2012 5:11 AM EST up reply actions  

And if you don't think we needed a stadium upgrade, you have a short memory

Last year, the team would have needed to move to a different city for the whole season as the Metrodome roof was being replaced. That dump was built on the cheap, like the 35W bridge. If you want to build something to last, you build it right, like Target Field. If you don’t like it, stay way.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Feb 15, 2012 10:43 PM EST up reply actions  

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