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Propaganda Pool: Alfonso Soriano

On Tuesday, the Washington Nationals placed 2B Jose Vidro on the disabled list.  Could this play to the Twins advantage?

By now everyone knows that Soriano is topping the Most Wanted lists of any team considered a "buyer" heading up to the July 31 trade deadline.  In a world where the Washington Nationals were competing for a shot at the postseason, the injury to Vidro could have seen the Nationals withdraw Soriano from the blocks as they moved him back to second base.  But as things stand, even though 9 games out of a Wild Card isn't unfathomable for a comeback (just ask us), Washington is chasing 10 teams.  They also don't have the roster to mount a late surge.  Soriano is on the block, regardless of Vidro's injury, and this could play into the hands of the Twins.

With the Nationals in need of a starting second baseman, and with the Twins full up in the outfield (especially with the imminent return of Torii Hunter), Castillo could be used as a major selling point and reduce the need for the Twins to offer a top prospect to complete the deal.  Combining Luis Castillo and Jesse Crain could be enough to land Minnesota Alfonso Soriano...as our second baseman.

While Soriano's defense is less than desirable, at second base or in left field, it's not as though Castillo is the Gold Glove calibre defender we hoped he still was.  Additionally, what you lose in the field you gain at the plate.

I'm going to be the first to admit that I'm blinded by the sheer genius of this idea, if only because I haven't bounced my plan off anybody yet.  That's where you come in.  Can Terry Ryan get this done?

Salaries

In 2006, Jesse Crain is making $360,000.  Luis Castillo is raking in $5,000,000.  Soriano is a bit more expensive, at $10,000,000.  Even if you pro-rate the salaries for the remainder of the season, the Twins would still end up owing Alfonso $3,000,000 to $4,000,000.

While this does make for an expensive rental being that Soriano is a free agent at season's end, consider this:  Luis Castillo's $5,750,000 option for 2007 kicks in with just another 35 at-bats.  Jesse Crain (unless I'm mistaken) is elligible for arbitration, meaning his salary will jump in the offseason.  This is food for thought; I'll get back to it later.

Personnel

The Twins in this proposed trade receive 2B Alfonso Soriano, who becomes our second baseman for the remainder of 2006.  This leaves the outfield roster as it is, since we're going to have enough troubles finding at-bats for Hunter, Kubel, Cuddyer, White and Tyner.  Decisions will need to be made as this situation gets sticky.

The Twins lose 2B Luis Castillo and RHP Jesse Crain.  Castillo's absence is covered in the trade.  Crain, who has been better than his numbers indicate, is finding himself in a very tight bullpen where Rick Anderson can basically close his eyes and point at random to put an effective reliever into the game.  Juan Rincon and Joe Nathan own the 8th and 9th innings respectively, and have done so consistently over the last two and a half seasons.  Then comes Pat Neshek, Dennys Reyes, Jesse Crain, Willie Eyre and Kyle Lohse.  Oh yes, Matt Guerrier is working his way back as well.  I've always been a fan of Jesse Crain, and yes, for more reasons than just because we have the same first name, but could he be an expendable commodity in this scenario?  He has a good fastball and slider, has a good strikeout rate and has been talked up as a potential closer in the recent past.

Bullpen and Lineup Adjustments

In ideal circumstances, your bullpen's best arms align like this:

Name      Duty
Nathan    Closer
Rincon    Set-up
Neshek    6th/7th
Reyes     LOOGY/6th/7th
Eyre      6th/7th
Lohse     Long Relief
Guerrier  Long Relief

As you can see the Twins would still be busting at the seems in the bullpen.  This scenario leaves the door open for Lohse on the trading block, and could give Eyre more consistent appearances to gain confidence and actually see Major Leage hitting.  That, or you could send him to Rochester in order to get regular time.  One or the other needs to happen, because you can't let talent waste away on the bench.  Right, Luis Rodriguez?

The batting order could be construed in a number of different ways, but knowing how Gardenhire likes to balance his right and left-handed hitters, and how easily Punto reaches base, this is how I see it:

Pos B  Name
3B  R  Nick Punto
C   L  Joe Mauer
2B  R  Alfonso Soriano
1B  L  Justin Morneau
RF  R  Michael Cuddyer
CF  R  Torii Hunter
DH  L  Jason Kubel
LF  R  Rondell White
SS  R  Jason Bartlett

Punto leads off, as a patient hitter who takes a walk as easily as he gets a hit.  Soriano splits up the two lefties, and sliding Mauer into the two-hole means Morneau can slip into the cleanup spot, which is where he should be hitting anyway.  Cuddyer, who has been effective, hits fifth, where his offensive prowess is better suited.  Hunter, with his moderate power, remains hitting sixth.  The rest of the bottom of the order remains unchanged as well.

Combining Logistics and Moving Forward

Castillo will be 31 on September 12, and has already shown signs of decay in his game.  His offense has levelled out around .280/.335/.370, but I'd have an easier time justifying Hunter's $12,000,000 in 2007 for his likely numbers than justifying Castillo's $5,750,000 for his likely 2007 numbers, considering the decline of typical middle infielders in their early-30's.  Moving Punto to second base in next year and using the money saved from the Castillo move to find a third baseman, via free agency or trade, is a viable solution for the hot corner debacle.

In 2007 there will be another batch of Twins pitching ready to make an impact in The Show.    Beau Kemp and Ricky Barrett, not to mention Matt Garza and Boof Bonser, will all be ready to legitimately vie for spots on the 25-man roster.  While losing Crain will remove a favorite of mine from the roster, there will be others to take his place.

Conclusions

While the Twins organization would have to open the wallets to attain Soriano, it's a gamble that could pay off.  He's strikeout prone, but Soriano hits for average and for power, something the Twins can use more of to help make the offense a threat in the postseason.  Losing Castillo and Crain, both good players, won't create any large holes, won't cost us prospects and creates a little more payroll flexibility for next season.

Prior to Soriano's discontent over having to play the outfield in Washington, he had been a clubhouse and fan favorite in New York and in Texas.  A return to second base will only make him happier.

Why I believe the injury to Vidro aides the Twins is because we can offer a player like Castillo, who still has value, to a team who not only needs a second baseman but needs the appearance of not just selling for the sake of selling.  Getting two players like Castillo and Crain cushions the blow of losing a player like Soriano.  Sure, we lost a guy, but look who we got for you!  A shiny, slightly used, but good, second baseman!  Ooh!  And look at this!  A young pitcher with a pretty fastball!

I'll leave you with some numbers on Soriano.  I've convinced myself this is a legitimately doable trade, and one that could give the Twins a little extra push as we enter the month of August.  Let's get it done.

2006 Statistics
 G  AB   H  R  2B  3B  HR  RBI  SB  SO  BB   Avg   Obp   Slg
99 402 115 74  25   2  31   62  25  89  43  .286  .360  .590

Advanced Batting Statistics
VORP   EQA  WARP  BRAR  BRAA
40.0  .310   5.1   41    28

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I REALLY like the idea...
Punto to me is our ideal 2b next year anyway, and if Soriano likes us enough (possible considering I think we might win the World Series this year) with the extra money we might be able to retain him and even play him in CF, picking up Hunter's option and dealing him for other holes (3b/DH longterm).  Now CF may sound farfetched to some, but I think that Soriano has all the tools to be effective there if just taught and given the chance.  The question is simply if he's willing.  While I don't expect him to be great from that position, I would expect him, with an offseason of help, to be at least adequate, and the offense from the CF position MORE than makes up for any dropoff in defense.  You play Punto at 2b and probably have Casilla ready by late in the year if you need a switch there.  Otherwise, though, the offense is EXTREMELY formidable.  You can fill DH easily enough, and while the 3b options in FA this year aren't exactly intriguing, a solid young 3b can be had for Hunter.  The 2007 lineup ideally, to me, would be something like:

Punto-2b
Kubel-LF
Mauer-C
Soriano-CF
Morneau-1b
Cuddyer-RF
DH-signing a decent mid-tier option (or White if he continues to hit)
3b-can be had easily from dealing Hunter
Bartlett-SS

As for the pen, as you mention, as much as I love Crain, we have more than enough arms on the way.  I don't think Eyre is fit for this team right now, but I think under a scenario like this I'd like Lohse to stay, effectively taking Neshek's spot now, with Neshek taking Crain's.  A bullpen of Nathan, Rincon, Neshek, Lohse, Reyes, Guerrier.  

I would also like to see the deal expanded somehow with the Nats to include someone like Armas to solidify the back of our rotation this year.  They can have Silva if they want, and another prospect or two.  Then we can essentially use Baker/Garza for the 5th spot, with Guerrier/Lohse picking up slack in games that they aren't able to pull through with.

I love this potential deal, but all of the above being said, I don't see a package like this doing it.  It would be intriguing, but if Bowden is smart (always a tricky proposition--I have ZERO confidence in his intelligence) he will realize that he basically has no shot at the playoffs for the next 2-3 years at least in the NL East, with the Mets and Marlins there, and will build for longer term with all prospects in a deal for Soriano.  I think not only would it take Castillo and Crain (if they're interested in both) but it would also take a couple of other prospects.  Now, I would probably still do that if they're not named Garza or Slowey.  I just don't know that the Nats would feel the same way.

Again, very interesting proposal.  I'll definitely be watching closely to see what happens here.

by djskilbr on Jul 26, 2006 4:40 AM EDT reply actions  

Eh
Eh, maybe.  Sure, i'd like it.  It would hurt the defense, but the offense would kick into high gear.

But at this point, i'm not expecting anything big.  Basically, Lohse will probobly be dealt, and that is it.  I'm hoping the Twins might deal Castillo this offseason in a move for a third abseman so Punto can move to second, but I don't really see that beign all too likely either.

"Baseball is great because you can't take a knee or kill the clock. You have to put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn chance." C Stengel

by AdamOnFirst on Jul 26, 2006 4:44 AM EDT reply actions  

Not likely
The Nats would be absolutley stupid if that is all they can get. They may be down a second baseman for the time being, but I don't think they are looking for someone entering the twilight of his career with nagging leg problems.  Crain could be used in a trade, but he is no centerpiece, either.  So, yes, of course I would do this trade, what Twins fan wouldn't.

The best thing that could be a reality to happen is for the Angels or possibly Mariners to come in and make the deal by giving up some of their top prospects.  That way he goes to the AL west and really doesn't play much of a factor on division or wild card factor.  

While I am at it, the other best thing that could happen is if Silva gets hammered for six or seven runs in the first three innings, and the Twins slug their way back and win the game to tie the wild card standings.

by cedab03 on Jul 26, 2006 10:25 AM EDT reply actions  

What the Nats will get
I'm telling you the Nationals are not going to get much for Soriano and it's not because they're stupid.  EVERYONE knows he's a rental, his defense is not particularly good, he wants to play 2b, etc.,etc and what alternative does Washington have but to sell?  Hold for draft picks? Bowden doesn't operate that way.  Ergo, the selling price is:  whatever deal looks better than two compensatory draft picks for losing Soriano to FA.

Crain is perfectly viable as a major part of any deal like this.  Have you seen the premium on middle relief this year?  His numbers have been lights out over the past few weeks and he could be a prime set up guy now, if not a closer down the road.  He is far more valuable than any compensatory draft pick.  I'm less sold on the value of Castillo to the Nationals.  I would dangle Span or Romero plus Crain and another B prospect, take it or leave it...

I just don't see a bidding war for Soriano.  The teams that could initiate such a war don't want to part with prospects (read: Angels and even Tigers).  Bowden is playing a dangerous game of chicken and I don't think he's gonna get anywhere near the bounty many imagine.  

As for the general plan outlined by Jesse...absolutely the right strategy, but I'm not convinced Soriano is the right bat.  I'd be more convinced of Carlos Lee.  But the theory is right...dump Hunter, use his money on a big and I mean BIG right handed bat, pick up a defensive CF in FA or by trade (Tavares, Erstad, Roberts, et al) and put together a vicious middle of the order punctuated by speed/OBP type pests around the edges.  

by HrbekIsMyHero on Jul 26, 2006 10:37 AM EDT reply actions  

Won't get it done
Castillo and Crain won't get it done at all.  That's incredibly wishful thinking.  I don't know the extent of Vidro's current injury, but he's signed through 2008, and they don't have an open position to play both Castillo and Vidro simultaneously next year (the rest of their infield is set).  Crain might be a good trading chip, but only if he goes along with a top prospect starter.

And although it may seem like it won't take much to get Soriano (the "anything better than compensation picks" theory), there could very well be a bidding war simply due to teams attempting to block their competition from acquiring him.  The Tigers and White Sox could easily top a silly offer like Crain and Castillo, not to mention most any offer involving just lower-level prospects.

by spycake on Jul 26, 2006 11:01 AM EDT reply actions  

Trading to prevent others from prospering
I agree the Nats wouldn't want Castillo, but I think you overvalue the gamemanship going on, Kenny Williams and his giant ego aside.  Teams are not throwing away prospects to keep Soriano away from others.  That's a little James Bond for my taste.   Your statement contains a key word, "COULD".  So far, they have not.  Tigers aren't budging on Sanchez; Angels not budging on a myriad of prospects; Kenny the Shill not budging on McCarthy or Fields.  Yankees holding on to Tabata and Phillips.  So, we'll see.  

Ultimately Soriano's value, if any, will be determined by the need of the buyer.  Neither Tigers nor WhiteSox nor Yankees (oh my) really need Soriano.  Angels and Twins more naturally fit that "need" category but are much less free with trading prospects.  Multiply together...I don't think there's a big haul waiting for Bowden AND I still think Ryan may be contacted by a drunken, wild eyed Bowden on Monday night the 31st and offer Alfonso for two beer cans and a Kyle Lohse trading card.  Again, we'll see.  

by HrbekIsMyHero on Jul 26, 2006 11:09 AM EDT reply actions  

Response
Tigers aren't budging on Sanchez; Angels not budging on a myriad of prospects; Kenny the Shill not budging on McCarthy or Fields.  Yankees holding on to Tabata and Phillips.

And likewise the Twins aren't budging on Garza, so the Nationals aren't moving him.  What's your point?  It's still a HUGE stretch to think they'll settle for lesser prospects (or an expensive, redundant player like Castillo).  If that becomes the case, then everybody and their mothers can put together a "competitive" package and probably outbid the Twins.  The Twins aren't getting any special favors here.

Ultimately Soriano's value, if any, will be determined by the need of the buyer.

No, the Nationals still control his fate this year.  They don't have to trade him.  If the best offers consist primarily of Lohse or Castillo, the Nationals will just hang on to him and gamble that they'll get an actual player of value with multiple compensation picks (Garza wasn't selected until the 25th pick last year, Huston Street was the 40th overall pick in 2004, etc, so it's not unheard of).

by spycake on Jul 26, 2006 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

No, no......
Castillo will be expensive for whomever picks him up next season. Why would the Nats, rebuilding for the future, want to get stuck with a high salaried second baseman. Just move Soriano there for the remainder of the season if need be.

Ultimately, you have to offer a package faaaar better than the two draft picks the Nats would pick up if he went the free agent route.

Crain is a good choice. He may be closer material. But if not, he's just another solid arm in the bullpen, destined to be a journeyman.

You would have to add 2-3 prospects in the deal. But by doing that, you might be able to swing Armas in the deal, too.

And, yes, force the Nats to take on a Lohse or Castillo or even a Rondell White.

If and when Torii comes back, I'm going to miss Tyner in the everyday lineup. I would almost rather see him regularly in left that White or Kubel. And I would ratehr see Kubel (knees permitting) at DH than White. White has shown some spark, but he's still lowman on the hitting totem-pole. And heaven forbid where Lew Ford where pop up when he returns. We need to trade or DL someone.

by twintown on Jul 26, 2006 11:15 AM EDT reply actions  

Why would the Nats want Castillo?
They're not going anywhere this year and Vidro will be back next year. So they can use a stop gap for the rest of the season and save the $5 million.

I would rather not take a rent-a-player. If the Twins want an infielder who can hit, I'd rather go after someone who will not be a free agent next year, such as Freddy Sanchez. But the Pirates probably don't want Castillo or Lohse, so we're looking at a three-way deal. The Dodgers need a veteran second basman and have expresed interests in Lohse. So they might be a partner in a three way deal that inclused Sanchez. Just a thought.

Joe Mauer for MVP.

by cmathewson on Jul 26, 2006 11:18 AM EDT reply actions  

What?!
Why in the world would the Pirates trade Sanchez?  He's leading the NL in batting average and he's still under their control (arbitration) for three seasons even after this year.

Pittsburgh would need to be overwhelmed to even consider moving Sanchez at this point, and not only can the Twins not afford to "overwhelm" them, I don't see any team willing to "overwhelm" them on our behalf in exchange for our spare parts.

by spycake on Jul 26, 2006 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Placeholder
I guess I wasn't clear. That's the kind of trade I'd be interested in. But barring something that provides value not just for this year, but the next few years, I think Ryan should stand pat.
Joe Mauer for MVP.

by cmathewson on Jul 26, 2006 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Luis Castillo
It appears that many want to move Castillo for whatever reason.  Lets stop for a second and think about what Luis Castillo brings to this team.  For better or worse, he is currently our leadoff hitter.  His play Monday where he just batted the ball to first was a thing of beauty.  And did you see him after last nights game, he was like a kid winning his first championship.

Last weekend, JR & I got on the elevator going down to breakfast.  Just so happened Castillo was also on it.  As he was leaving, I said "have a great day."  To which he responded with the most wonderful smile.  As he left the elevator he was walking ahead of us with a very noticeable limp.  I don't know if he will ever be 100%, at least playing on the Dome's surface...but he certainly is playing with what has to be substantial pain.

I can see his being an asset in this clubhouse full of young kids.  "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."  After winning 33 out of the last 41 means it certainly isn't broke.  

by roger @ Twinkie Town on Jul 26, 2006 12:01 PM EDT reply actions  

Castillo
It's as big a risk keeping him as trading him. If we keep him, we're on the hook for $5 million next year  for an aging, broken down second baseman. And as long as he's on the roster, it forces us to keep Punto at third and not seek a long-term third base option.

If you move Castillo and parts for a third baseman, you can move Punto to second. As far as who would be the lead-off hitter, I'd pick Punto. Bartlett can handle the second slot. Or, if you do land a middle of the order third baseman, you can just slide Mauer up to the second slot.

There's no urgency to trade him. But now might be the best time, if the right package comes around.

Joe Mauer for MVP.

by cmathewson on Jul 26, 2006 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kubel...
I would actually slot Kubel in the #2 slot next year.  Keep Bartlett 9th.  Punto should leadoff though, from 2b.

by djskilbr on Jul 26, 2006 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Basically yeah
that's about right.  His skill set is declining in all aspects and he allready is the worst hitter (for now, though Tyner is probobly worse long haul) of what I call "team speedy" (the speedy, hgih on base guys currently hitting 8,9,1,2 in our batting order).  If we could get an average thirdbaseman, we'd move Punto over to second and be great.  Castillo is probobly an average second baseman at this point, and Punto is a plus third baseman, but the trade would give us an average third abseman and a stellar second baseman.  that' called improvement.
"Baseball is great because you can't take a knee or kill the clock. You have to put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn chance." C Stengel

by AdamOnFirst on Jul 26, 2006 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ya...
and again, if people are worried about Punto's past injury history, remember that we will probably have Casilla ready by the end of the year in 2007.

by djskilbr on Jul 26, 2006 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think we need to worry
about people coming and going.  All or our speculation is merely what it is...time to waste time at work and dream about a dynamic pitching staff and potent lineup with no flaws.

On Castillo though, I don't think he will be back.    I do see him being dealt in the offseason, Punto going to 2nd, and getting a 3rd basemen if there is one available.

On Soriano and prospects...here is an interesting read from the NY Post

http://www.nypost.com/sports/twins_can_make_a_killing_sports_joel_sherman.htm

by cedab03 on Jul 26, 2006 12:19 PM EDT reply actions  

Hypothetical 3B
So would someone care to toss out some names of who these big-improvement, mid- to long-term 3Bs are that we're going to snatch up when we move Punto to 2nd?  Last I heard, the free agent class was topped by such swoon-worthy names as Joe Randa.  So, which teams exactly are eager to drop their underpriced and undervalued young talent?

by Jlubby on Jul 26, 2006 12:53 PM EDT reply actions  

There's not much...
The best fit would seem to be the Dodgers.  I still think we should deal Lohse and something else for them (he'd be great in that park/league, fills a need for them) to get one of their 3b.  They have 3 in Aybar/Guzman/Laroche.  One should be able to be had.  The Rockies also have 2 in Atkins/Stewart, and need pitching/bullpen arms (according to them).  So those would be my top two targets.

by djskilbr on Jul 26, 2006 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

And...
I'm really surprised I haven't mentioned this before, but I'd make a play for Betemit.  He's being talked about in deals right now for relief help as the Braves really need pitching.  I bet something like Lohse/Perkins (now/future) could get that done.  And we wouldn't be losing much and have a potential longterm answer at 3b, and a GREAT utility guy for now (or Punto in that role).

by djskilbr on Jul 26, 2006 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ya...
Saw the Neshek/Baker thing on the Strib board.  Would you do it?  I'd be willing to give up Neshek or Crain (our pen is more than deep enough) but I'd prefer to give up some package of Boof/Perkins/something else instead of Baker.  With Baker, we only have 1 SP spot to worry about next year (Garza in the fold).  I'd still like to expand it even further and do a blockbuster with Armas included too though, completely shoring up our pen.

by djskilbr on Jul 26, 2006 1:18 PM EDT reply actions  

Ryan
Terry Ryan is not going to get rid of the best secondbaseman we have had in years for a rent player.  That is just stupid.  We would not be able to afford Soriano next year, anyway.  Soriano is going to just get more expensive.  He is very good, but I do not see Terry Ryan makieng that move.  We are probably going to get rid of Torii, Loshe, Eyre, Stewart, Dave Gassner(because he is consistently on the DL), and Radke is going to retire.  That gives Terry Ryan $30,854,000 to work with, giving Ryan some room to bring in some very good players.  I just dont see Ryan getting rid of Castillo for a rent player.

by Twins2006 on Jul 26, 2006 3:10 PM EDT reply actions  

CMath and others...
...have addressed next year's budget several times.  Considering the raises already on the books and huge raises for Mauer, Morneau and Cuddyer, if we stay at $64-65mm next year the amount available is minimal.

by roger @ Twinkie Town on Jul 26, 2006 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not true...
There will be raises, but I don't see them accounting for more than an absolute max of 15 million.  So assuming Hunter/Castillo aren't on this team, that is 20 million right there.  (5 left from Radke/Lohse/Stewart plus 15 for Hunter/Castillo).

by djskilbr on Jul 26, 2006 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

If
If Hunter and castillo weren't on the team, it would be a free 17 million to spend.  So we'd move Punto to second, but we'd now have to find a totally new third baseman and center fielder.  As we have seen, there really aren't many very goo dCF options availabe in free agency this year, and none of them are cheep.  To get even an average guy out there, it would cost 6 or 7 mil.  Then we would have a bunch for the second baseman.  Also, we would have lost about 3 or Soriano, so we'd then have about 7 mil left, for which we could get a good thrid baseman.  So we'd go from a good center fielder and a plus third abseman to a marginal centerfielder and a good third baseman.  not really profitable.

I am a big supporter of moving Castillo and using that and/or other resources to aquire a better thirdbasmena then have Punto play second, but paying Torrii Hunterr too much money is something we have little choice but to aquiese to for one more year.

"Baseball is great because you can't take a knee or kill the clock. You have to put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn chance." C Stengel

by AdamOnFirst on Jul 26, 2006 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

True, but...
Castillo may very well be the best second baseman the Twins have had in years, but if the Twins get rid of him before next year, their second baseman would likely be Nick Punto, who (assuming this year is not a complete aberration) would also be the best second baseman the Twins have had in years, except on the upside of his career and much cheaper than Castillo.  The emergence of Punto has made Castillo quite expendable, especially if his salary can be put toward an above-average third baseman.

by BeefMaster on Jul 26, 2006 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yep...
Like I said, I'd put Soriano in CF with that money, if he was willing, find a young, cheap 3b (plus a SP) in the trade of Hunter/Castillo, and use the extra 7 million or so to split between a DH option and a veteran SP.  The money works.

by djskilbr on Jul 26, 2006 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Soriano...
...would be a terrible CF.  By all accounts, he's not a very good LF, which doesn't make for a very good CF.

Just like at 2B, by playing Soriano there you would be giving away all of the benefits from his offense by making the defense leakier.

by ubelmann on Jul 26, 2006 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agree
I definitley agree on Soriano in center.  not going to work well.

But I wouldn't say you giv ebakc all of his ofensive contributions with his poor defense, though you do give back a healthy chunk.

"Baseball is great because you can't take a knee or kill the clock. You have to put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn chance." C Stengel

by AdamOnFirst on Jul 27, 2006 1:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree...
I think he has all the tools.  He's not a great LF right now, but he still has tools.  He was simply thrust into the spot.  I think if he's willing (that's the big question) and given time to be taught, he could be at least league average there, which would still give us a HUGE benefit from his offense.

by djskilbr on Jul 26, 2006 10:38 PM EDT reply actions  

More than tools...
Being a good CF is more than just being a speedy guy with a good arm.  Getting good reads off of the bat is essential and Soriano hasn't shown that he has that ability.  Even just running good routes is something that players sometimes never master.  Plus, Soriano reportedly also has a terrible vertical leap which is a minus for playing CF in the dome where you have a reasonably short fence in CF.

I don't buy Soriano as a league average defensive CF.

by ubelmann on Jul 26, 2006 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

As I said...
we disagree.  I know it's more than just tools, but I've seen him do some good things in LF.  I think he could do some good things in CF as well.  

Obviously there's no way to prove this out though unless it happened.

by djskilbr on Jul 26, 2006 11:55 PM EDT reply actions  

Soriano is a chimera
You don't just stick someone out in center who has never played the position and expect him to catch many of the balls headed his way.  

Denard Span has more tools than Soriano but he's not nearly the center fielder that Hunter, Tyner, or Ford are because he still has to learn how to read balls off the bat. Unless you've played out there, it's tough to describe what you have to do to be successful. As a former center fielder, I know that it takes more than speed. It takes reading where the ball will be hit before it's hit and running at full speed to where you anticipate the ball will be.

Nobody is better than Hunter at this skill. And it's not something that can be taught. It's pure instinct. To expect someone to pick this up at age 28 is pure folly. Soriano is not a good left fielder despite his speed for this reason. He never learned how to read balls off the bat. Its the same reason he's a poor second baseman, again despite his speed. He just doens'nt have very good baeball instincts. For this reason alone, he will never be worth what his stats dictate or what those stats garner in salary or trade value. You can't be a good all around player if all you have is a good bat.

And even his bat is suspect. He swings the heaviest bat in the game. Why? Because all he wants to do is hit home runs. He has zero ability for situational hitting. He swings the same regardless of the count, the pitcher, the number of outs, the inning, or who is on base. So he strikes out a lot and doesn't capitilize on scoring opportunities. And he almost never takes advantage of his speed on the bases.

In short, he's the antithesis of a small market player: Someone who can do the little things to win regardless of talent and who will not cost an arm and a leg because of the value of statistics like home runs. He will never be worth to the Twins what other teams will pay for him. I hope and pray that Terry Ryan is smart enough to steer clear of  Soriano. I think he is.

Joe Mauer for MVP.

by cmathewson on Jul 27, 2006 2:58 AM EDT reply actions  

CF...
I'm a former CF too CMath.  Still play it now actually in men's leagues.  And I know it takes more than just physical skill.  But I really think Soriano can be taught to be an average CF.  And his offense translates to a BIG boost from that position.  I just think it would be a great experiment to try, but I also would rather have Carlos Lee.  He will be out to MURDER the White Flags.

by djskilbr on Jul 27, 2006 1:48 PM EDT reply actions  

This is assuming...
This is also assuming that Soriano wants to taught to be a CF.  Given what we've seen from him, I strongly suspect he would resist such a move, especially if it meant long-term relocation to Minnesota (i.e. re-signing him after the season).

by spycake on Jul 27, 2006 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree...
and I said that.  It all depends on if he's willing, which undoubtedly is a big question mark.

by djskilbr on Jul 27, 2006 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why?
Why would you say he could learn to be an average centerfielder?  He was always a poor second baseman, the position he came through the minors at, and he is a poor left fielder, a significantly less demanding positon than CF.  What evidence is there, other than he is fast, to support him being a potential center fielder.

Furthermore, His contract runs out at the end of the year, and if we got him, it would be a rental.  We wouldn't have time to "teach him CF (at age 28, whil eprobobly reluctant) in the next two months anyway.

This is one of the biggest popedreams I've ever seen.

Hey, guys.  Wouldn't it be great if Jason Kubel were healhty enough to learn to play third base, so we could start him there?

"Baseball is great because you can't take a knee or kill the clock. You have to put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn chance." C Stengel

by AdamOnFirst on Jul 27, 2006 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Urp
Ignore the fact a question mark or two are missing in that and "pipedream" was spelled witrha  Catholoic lilt.
"Baseball is great because you can't take a knee or kill the clock. You have to put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn chance." C Stengel

by AdamOnFirst on Jul 27, 2006 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

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