Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Phil Mickelson Outshines Tiger Woods

Replacing Torii Hunter

Some parts of his game will be difficult to replace.  And yes, I mean replace, because until the Twins at least make an offer there's no reason to believe he'll be back.

Getting On-Base  (Career OBP:  .324)

Patience and taking walks have never been strong points in Hunter's game, and even though his aggressive nature at the plate can make him dangerous it also displays a lack of discipline.  Torii walked in just over 7.5% of his plate appearances in 2007; that's not easy to do but it's probably easy to do better.  This is why replacing Hunter's on-base skills will be one of the easiest, and most inexpensive, assets to find a new suitor for.

The Plate Appearance  (Career P/PA:  3.51)

For a career, seeing three and a half pitches each time you come to the plate isn't horrible.  It's not good but it could certainly be worse.  But continuing the theme of looking behind the traditional statistical lines, Torii only saw 3.37 P/PA this past summer.  This is fewer than any position player for the Twins receiving a plate appearance in 2007 not named Chris Heintz or Matthew LeCroy.

Hunter's second consecutive career year came in spite of his aggression at the plate being even more severe than it had been in years past.  (His BABIP was up, his strikeout rates were down and he still saw the fewest pitches per plate appearance since becoming a full time player.)  Attributes which allow a player to take more pitches, draw out at-bats, and make a pitcher show everything he has should also be inexpensive, and easy, assets to replace.

Power  (2007:  .218 ISO, 28 HR, .505 SLG)

This will probably be the most difficult, and most expensive, asset to make up--good isolated power, very solid raw power.  In fact, even with the money available for the Twins to spend, to replace these numbers that Torii brought to the lineup Minnesota will have to turn toward players who aren't as complete as Hunter.  In this category more than any other, the Twins may need to pay for something a bit more one-dimensional in order to stay within their team salary comfort level.

This doesn't mean go after a player like Tony Batista.  It does mean that finding a player who can't catch, can't throw, can't steal bases, can't play defense, but CAN hit should be on the radar.  Even if the player is aging, has some minor issues staying off the disabled list or even has some past dysfunction in his personal life, this kind of player still might be the best bet for the Twins.  Power is an expensive commodity, and when Hunter goes, the Twins will need to find someone to offset the loss.

Defense  (Career:  72 assists, 2.82 CF range factor, .896 CF zone rating)

Minnesota doesn't need to replace the history of Torii Hunter, which is the most difficult thing to wrap your mind around when thinking about the future of center field.  Torii was great for a couple of years, and has been very, very good his entire career.  Bill Smith just needs to replace who Hunter has been recently...which is no small task, either.  In '07 he made plays on 47 balls out of his zone, made plays on 89% of the balls in his zone, and he still has a very strong and very accurate arm.

Realistically, unless the Twins somehow manage to land Andruw Jones, and they won't (80 plays made out of zone, made plays on 92% of balls in his zone), they won't be able to replicate Hunter's defense.  Still, because defensive reputation can inflate a player's worth compared to how good he actually is, the cost of the defensive replacement for Hunter isn't an easy call.  Sacrificing offense (or at the very least power) for a defensive-oriented player is the best route to take to ensure getting your money's worth on a player, since offense will not only inflate salary but generally his defensive reputation as well...which will inflate salary even more.

Speed and the Base Path (126 career stolen bases, 67.7% success rate, 82nd-84th percentile in raw speed)

Speed isn't as important as knowing how to use it:   when Carl Crawford digs for third it's very realistic that the ball could beat him there.  A big asset for Hunter in the field was his speed, where he was able to make up for slow jumps or difficult positioning to track down fly balls.  On the bases Torii had developed a knack for making the most of his stolen base attempts by taking advantage of sleeping defenses, or by using what he knew about the catcher or the starting pitcher and his windup.

Inserting Alexi Casilla into the lineup replaces Hunter's raw speed (and more), but it doesn't replace his savvy for stealing bases or his speed in the field.  Inserting Jason Tyner replaces Hunter's speed in center field and his raw speed, but it's unknown whether he still has what it takes to steal 20 bags a year at a 70% success rate.  Speed on it's own is a fairly undervalued and inexpensive asset to purchase, which is promising, but for speed in the lineup there are two options already in house to replace the speed lost from Hunter.

Conclusions

If you buy into my evaluation, there are three parts of Torii's game that are fairly easy and inexpensive to replace:  the ability to get on base, the ability to wear down a pitcher and speed.  One metric I rated as difficult to judge but nearly impossible to replace (defense), and one metric I rated as expensive and difficult to reproduce (power).  Those are a lot of things to find replacements for, but it's definitely easier (and cheaper) to find the pieces than to duplicate the entire package that Hunter brought to the table.  Because the Twins are also auditioning for a number of starting positions (at least third base, center field and designated hitter), it means there are three starting positions open with which to put together a sum of parts to replace a whole.  Or a hole.  Both, really.

What kinds of players does this mean the Twins should be looking for?  It's hard to say, but there are options.  You could go for a speedy center fielder who can take pitches and hopefully have a stronger arm than Jason Tyner, or you could go with Mike Cameron who historically will give you some power and a better OBP than Hunter but is getting into the years where a player can suddenly just disappear.  For power the Twins are probably best off looking to aging veterans like Mike Sweeney, Mike Piazza, Tony Clark or Preston Wilson; none of them are sure shots and all of them come with a gamble, but barring some unforseen Amazin' Trade the Twins won't get players the caliber of an Alex Rodriguez, Barry Bonds, Bobby Abreu or Mike Lowell.

Even if the Twins had managed to keep Hunter, there were going to be some gambles involved in filling out the position players on the 25-man roster for next year.  With Torii's impending departure looming less than two weeks away there may be even more gambles, even though a couple of them could be marginalized by using the money that won't be used on our departing Gold Glover with the Silver Smile.

Comment 20 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Nice
Great breakdown.  I'm loving this post and I'm seriously working on memorizing some of these numbers so I can whip them out on all of my friends and wow them with my knowledge.

by Jon Marthaler on Oct 31, 2007 12:25 AM EDT reply actions  

Hunter's
Hunter's rare combination of power and superior defense at an up the middle position will be the true loss.  Either one or the other and replaceable with relative ease.  A player with both is a star and irreplaceable.  But we'll just have to get along, now wont we.

Cameron is a PERFECT substitute in this regard, as he's basically a non all-star version of Hunter.

Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on Oct 31, 2007 1:52 AM EDT reply actions  

Still
feel that way now he's been suspended for 25 games?  According to his interview with a San Diego radio station it wasn't steroids, but it was a nutritional supplement he no longer had.  Since he no longer had it and it can't be tested, he was forced to take the suspension.  I'm not sure what I believe, but hey, it wasn't steroids.

by Jesse on Oct 31, 2007 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Even more so actually...
Now he's an even better pickup.  You have to get someone of worth to cover those first 25 games, but now he will be even more underpaid AND will be fresher for the season.

It seems odd, but this news today now makes Cameron #1 on my list, above Torii and everyone else, for CF for the Twins.

by djskilbr on Oct 31, 2007 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ug
Ug, yeah, that sucked.
Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on Oct 31, 2007 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think he's THAT hard to replace really...
in this market.  

Both Rowand and Cameron figure to be close to Hunter over the next couple years, both offensively and defensively.  I'd say the same for Jones offensively too, but I really think he has become pretty bad defensively personally.

IF, and this is a big IF with this organization, the Twins are willing to sign Rowand or Cameron (and for less money to boot) I will barely even remember Torii was here.  We'll be just fine without him.  Heck, considering the saved money, we might even be BETTER overall than if we HAD resigned him.  

Will be waiting anxiously to see what happens.

by djskilbr on Oct 31, 2007 2:01 AM EDT reply actions  

I see this as a positive...
it's just amphetamines.  

I'd jump on him now at a bargain rate.  

See my post above.

by djskilbr on Oct 31, 2007 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

One other thing in Cameron's favor...
he apparently just got classified as a Type B FA rather than A.  That's pretty huge actually and means he's that much better of a target for the Twins.

He's really my #1 choice now, after today.

by djskilbr on Oct 31, 2007 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hunter on the Bases
This is the part of his game that we will miss the least.  He was a gambler and made a ton of bad gambles.  I'm no Hunter apologist (as we all know), but his biggest asset the last couple of years has been his power.  The Twins will certainly miss that.    I also believe that he's just a flat out hacker and if he tries to be patient, he loses a lot of his ability to mash mistakes.

Hunter's an aggressive player.  Always will be.  While that translates into some big positives, it also has negatives.  I also think that kind of player doesn't age well -- although his last two seasons have been surprisingly good, considering my thesis.  I find it really hard to believe that he'll be a $15 million a year player four or five or SIX years from now.

SBG -- Your source for half-baked crap

by SBG on Oct 31, 2007 11:43 AM EDT reply actions  

$15 Million
I find it really hard to believe that he'll be a $15 million a year player four or five or SIX years from now.

Absolutely.  I think most teams realize that too, but they're willing to pay the price in order to have him for the next two or three years.  That's the nature of the game unfortunately--larger teams are willing to bite the bullet down the road if it means improvements now, and it prices most teams out of the market for premier players.

by Jesse on Oct 31, 2007 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Tyner
Everyone talks about Tyner like he's some kind of speed burner. I just don't see it. Sure, he has above average speed overall. But I would say he has below average speed for a center fielder who often finds himself hitting near the top of the order. He also is below average on jumps and other factors that make for a good fielder. Going from Hunter to Tyner is not just losing a plus arm, but a lot of other things as well.

Otherwise, I thought this was a solid analysis. One way I look at it is the Twins can afford to go with a Coco Crisp or Willy Tevares type of player in center if they manage to replace Hunter's power between third base and DH. That should not be hard to do considering that third base had almost no power in 2007. And the only time the DH spot had power was when it was manned by Morneau or Hunter.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Oct 31, 2007 2:44 PM EDT reply actions  

Defense
I'm not sure if speed is affected when a player is in the outfield as opposed to on the base paths or if it's other things (jumps, judging trajectory, positioning), but for my comparison of speed between Hunter and Tyner I went here and here.  But looking at THT's defensive metrics for Tyner, he appears to be a much better and efficient defender in left than center (even though the sample sizes are relatively small).

As for last year's designated hitters, don't forget that Kubel's strong run late in the season helped him out enormously.  As a DH, Kubel hit .298/.383/.491 in 114 at-bats; 13 doubles, 3 homers, 17 walks and 22 strikeouts.  To me this just means it won't break my heart if the Twins nab a starting left fielder and keep Kubel as the DH.

by Jesse on Oct 31, 2007 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

my suggestion for CF
If you want to look at comparable CF at not so comparable prices, look no further than to the Cubs for a former player Jaques Jones.  He is a slight downgrade from Hunter but for 10 million in savings, I'll take it.

by doofus04 on Nov 1, 2007 10:12 PM EDT reply actions  

I'm not opposed to Jones
but he isn't an everyday player.  His career splits versus LHP are horrendous.  Additionally he's still under contract with the Cubs, and if Minnesota is going to trade young pitching talent it would be best used for someone who can rack up 550-650 PA's next year.

by Jesse on Nov 1, 2007 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ug
Ug, gag me with a spoon.  No Jones PLEASE.
Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on Nov 2, 2007 2:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

I am opposed to Jones
Jones is the ultimate free-swinger, and he throws fruity rainbows from the outfield. I'd actually take Tyner over Jones (seriously).

by Skippy tastes better than Jiff on Nov 5, 2007 1:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Seriously...
unless we have a worm problem at the Dome that JJ can help with based on his throws from the outfield, I don't want to touch him.

And besides, we can always have Lecroy as a bench coach to take care of that problem.

by djskilbr on Nov 2, 2007 5:15 AM EDT reply actions  

Tyner's fielding
I simply don't understand why people think that Tyner is a below-average fielder.  That guy has an arm!  I watched two games this year where he threw someone out at home from mid to deep left field without a cut-off man.  I doubt many in the league could do that.  Don't sell this guy short.

by dt on Nov 2, 2007 10:27 AM EDT reply actions  

One more to weigh in on this
Hunter has been a gambler, both in the field and on the base paths. That has positive and negative aspects as we all know. I've always liked Cameron, but he's probably quite a free-swinger as well.

Some announcers of the world series complained that the Red Sox play boring baseball because they always try to take pitchers deep into counts. To me, that's just smart baseball. That is one reason why they seem to come up with huge hits in tight situations. They seemed to make an even more concerted effort during the playoffs. I'd love to get someone with more plate patience than Hunter.

by Skippy tastes better than Jiff on Nov 5, 2007 1:26 AM EST reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

TT is an SB Nation blog of, by and for the fans. We strive to be the best Minnesota Twins blog by providing quality content and analysis, as well as daily news and notes on the team. We hope you'll make Twinkie Town your home for all things Twins!

Twinkie Town On Twitter


Editor-In-Chief

Twinkietown_small Jesse

Senior Writer

Small Bobomojo

Hrbek_small Jon Marthaler

The_jet_small cmathewson

Gladdentwins_small Adam Peterson

Hosken_powell_autograph_small RandBall's Stu

Twins_woo_small Steve Adams

W00t__2__small brandonwarne52

Special Contributor

Small roger13

Untitled_small Trevour

Chairmanmauer_small fischean