Rays, Twins Swap High-End Prospects

by Jesse on Nov 28, 2007 4:14 PM EST in News Comment 60 comments

Bam.

Matt Garza and Jason Bartlett are in the process of being sent to Tampa Bay in return for 22-year old outfielder Delmon Young. It's being reported on KFAN, 1130 am out of Minneapolis. Also included in the pending deal are Juan Rincon from the Twins, and Brendon Harris and Jason Pridie from the Rays.

Additional details as they become available. LEN III at the Strib.

Congrats to Cmathewson and WITwinsfan who beat me to the punch.

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Some remarks

This is rare--essentially a challenge trade of two young players with the same amount of service time (roughly).

I think its fair to say that Terry Ryan would probably not have done this. He was pretty risk averse--this is the opposite of risk averse.

How will the infield sort out? The Rays were horrible defensively last year, in part because Harris is super stretched at shortstop. My assumption is that the Twins envision him at either 2B or 3B, which means either Punto (ack) or Casilla at Short, unless they acquire one in another deal. Punto, despite the collective delusions of the fanbase, is not a great defensive player, and really, I think, cannot play SS everyday.

They still need another infielder, and still need to fill center, unless they really think Pridie is the answer, which I doubt. Young is not a center-fielder, and really should be playing right field, which is filled unless they trade Cuddyer(!). I suppose he and Kubel could be the LF and DH in some combination.

by Eric in Madison on Nov 28, 2007 7:07 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I want to get

more into a lot of what you said tonight, when I do something a bit more in-depth. So I'll be brief.

I agree that Terry Ryan probably would not have made this trade; this move shows that Bill Smith is at least willing to take a calculated risk in order to make his team better, whether that's now or in the future. Ryan, from an outsider's perspective, came off as unable to make a decision one way or the other.

Trying to sort out the infield the way it is now just baffles me. I'm hoping this picture can clear up once Johan is dealt for Kemp, LaRoche and Billingsly (fingers crossed!).

Pridie hit .318/.375/.539 at AAA last summer. I don't think he's THAT good, but he raked. It'll be interesting to see how he responds off a great offensive season. Young+center field=gouge out my eye sockets. As far as the Kubel/Young situation, I imagine this will play itself out naturally. One will get more DH at-bats, one will (cross your fingers) play average defense in left. Young does have a strong arm.

by Jesse on Nov 28, 2007 7:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah

The infield is completely unsettled with this deal.

Here's the thing about Pridie--that half season looks A LOT like an outlier. He's never been anywhere close to that level a hitter. Frankly, he really wasn't very good anywhere above Rookie ball until that 63 game run last year. I think it would be a mistake to count on him as anything other than a spare outfielder at this point. They have to still be looking for a CF.

by Eric in Madison on Nov 28, 2007 7:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

to be fair

he had a good year last year in AA as well. It is possible that he made an adjustment and has turned the corner. But I am with you, it is most likely an outlier and isn't a real prospect.

by TMoney on Nov 28, 2007 8:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Outliers...

Also to be fair, Pridie's 2006 looks like an outlier as well (his power totally evaporated, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was nursing an injury), but he doesn't walk much, and he doesn't make enough contact to hit for a high average over the long haul. His power is somewhat intriguing, and could be average or above average for an up-the-middle player, but it's not going to be too useful coupled with a low OBP.

He might have a good season or two in his prime where a high BABIP and his middling power combine to give him a decent overall line, but his role should be as a reserve OF.

by ubelmann on Nov 28, 2007 8:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Billingsley?

I've never liked him.

I know it's a small sample size, whatever, but I watched him pitch against the Twins at the Dome in '06 I think. He was horrible. Ever since then I've watched people pick him up off waivers in my fantasy leagues and scoffed at them as he's inevitably dropped.

"I don't care about feelings." - Lou Piniella

by natetheskate on Nov 28, 2007 11:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Wow

People in your fantasy leagues always discard 12-5 starters with 3.31 ERAs and almost 1 K/inning? I need in on this, because in the 12 team league I won last year, I was consistently starting James Shields, Dice-K, and Gil Meche as my backend starters.

Replace Nick Punto.

by rayken on Nov 29, 2007 2:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Um... What?

Punto, despite the collective delusions of the fanbase, is not a great defensive player

Actually, that's exactly what his is: all defense. I don't know how much you watched the Twins last year, but anyone who followed the Twins closely would conclude that Punto's fielding was phenominal all around the infield. He led the world in web gems in 2007.

Just what exactly leads you to believe that he's not great in the field?

-Flip

by Flip27 on Nov 29, 2007 5:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Metrics

Punto made the phenomenal play, but he was near the bottom of the league at third base by most metrics in range. I assume he would fair even worse at short.

Everyone raved about his defense in part because he hit so poorly. Similar to that catcher who's defense is touted when he's not hitting his weight, Punto's defense grew into the stuff of legend as his hitting woes reached historic proportions.

The one thing he excels at is making the bare hand play. Unfortunately, there's not a lot of call for that at short stop.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Nov 29, 2007 5:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I donno

I'm pretty sure we were touting his defense in 2006 as well. I also don't care much about "metrics" that try to measure range. It was pretty obvious to me that Punto's range is above average at third and around the infield. I can remember several balls in foul territory behind third that he ran down much better then other players would have.

I just think that some fans don't want to give Punto any credit for doing anything well because they're so sick of seeing attempt to hit.

-Flip

by Flip27 on Nov 29, 2007 5:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I think

I think you said it. "Above average." Good. But not great or any better than that.

Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on Nov 29, 2007 5:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, but...

When you combine the above average range at several positions with a great glove, a strong throwing arm, and ridiculously acrobatic plays, you get a great all-around fielder.

-Flip

by Flip27 on Nov 29, 2007 6:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You also get Derek Jeter...

...who is a poor defensive player. Flashy isn't the same as good.

Punto doesn't have great instincts to the ball and his arm is overrated. (For instance, Bartlett can make the throw from the hole much, much better than Punto can.) At second base, his speed would help overcome his reaction handicap, and he would probably be slightly above average.

As a third baseman, though, Punto was about average. At second base, he'd be a touch above average (around 5 runs per 150 games) and at shortstop he'd be a touch below average (around 5 runs below average per 150 games).

by ubelmann on Nov 29, 2007 6:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Define average, among other things

>>>>(For instance, Bartlett can make the throw from the hole much, much better than Punto can.)<<<<<<<

At any level, the player must be able to make the routine play. Puntos does. Bartlett doesn't.

Bartlett's arm and alleged range doesn't do him any good when he lets routine ground balls shoot through his wickets. God, am I glad that lame stuff has come to an end in Minnesota.

>>>>>>>At second base, his speed would help overcome his reaction handicap, and he would probably be slightly above average.

These numbers are based on what type of formula?

After providing that, address "average." Is it "average" or "median" by the way? If it is average, why? Wouldn't we be better off knowing where any player is relative to the median?

And what percentage of MLB players in these calculations are 'average"? Who are the "average" shortstops?

"Man, the past is a long and twisty road." -- Satchel Paige.

by Firpo Marberry on Dec 1, 2007 7:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Self-explanatory fool

average -

1. a quantity, rating, or the like that represents or approximates an arithmetic mean: Her golf average is in the 90s. My average in science has gone from B to C this semester.
2. a typical amount, rate, degree, etc.; norm.

Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on Dec 1, 2007 8:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

"fool"?

When you find yourself goaded into calling someone derogatory names on this site, especially when you are an "insider" who is supposed to be setting an example, and helping to create an atmosphere that welcomes dialogue...

you are the fool.

by montanatwinsfan on Dec 1, 2007 10:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Deragatory

I didn't swear, I didn't say jerk, or moron, or retard, or idiot. I called him a fool. He literally asked "what does average mean." It was a stupid question designed to do exactly what HE always does, which is waste our time.

An average player, as in, about in the middle of all players, is pretty self explanatory, and I won't apologize for calling it so.

Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on Dec 2, 2007 5:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Who's the fool?

>> He literally asked "what does average mean."

Of course, I didn't.

Geez, you can't even read, Adam.

Find that quote anywhere in my post.

Here are my questions again, Adam.

Answer them.

>>>>>OOOBS: As a third baseman, though, Punto was about average. At second base, he'd be a touch above average (around 5 runs per 150 games) and at shortstop he'd be a touch below average (around 5 runs below average per 150 games).<<<<<<<<

1) These numbers are based on what type of formula?

[What type of formula are they based on Adam? Explain it.]

2. After providing that, address "average." Is it "average" or "median" by the way?

[You'll probably have to Google median and average to know the difference, Adam.]

3. If it is average, why? Wouldn't we be better off knowing where any player is relative to the median?

[Why are we working with the average rather than the median, Adam?]

4. And what percentage of MLB players in these calculations are 'average"?

[What percentage, Adam?]

5. Who are the "average" shortstops?

[Who are they, Adam?]

"Man, the past is a long and twisty road." -- Satchel Paige.

by Firpo Marberry on Dec 3, 2007 1:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Routine Situations...

Manny Ramirez and Derek Jeter each hit into 21 double plays last year. That's a lot of double plays to hit into, and it ranks them amongst the worst in baseball. If they can't execute in routine situations like that, all of their alleged "doubles" and "home runs" don't mean anything.

by ubelmann on Dec 2, 2007 4:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm gonna

I'm gonna go with a similar thing to what cmath said. His defense is good, but no better. His glove was so heavily praised because A> Gardentool needed to BS SOME explanation for why baseball's worst everyday player remained in the lineup and B> Because he hit so poorly his glove reputation grew, oddly enough.

Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on Nov 29, 2007 5:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Pridie should

just replace Tyner as the 4th.

by djskilbr on Nov 28, 2007 7:58 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

If

If Harris really is poor defensively like eric says, I'm not a fan of this at all. Garza for Young is probably in our favor just a bit, but I'd say Garza-Rincon for Young-Pridie is probably fair.

But losing Bartlett defense...

eh...

I dunno, I'm biased because Bartlett is my favorite Twin...

Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on Nov 28, 2007 8:45 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Bartlett isn't my favorite Twin by a long stretch

But I don't see how this makes us any better. If we are dealing Johan, and want to stay competitive this year I think we needed Garza to come through as a #3 or #4. And who the hell is gunna replace Bartlett? Punto!?! I know a lot of you are hoping there is more out there to make some sense of this trade, but if there isn't I will be highly skeptical of this Bill Smith guy.

by montanatwinsfan on Nov 28, 2007 9:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe trading Garza means

we're gonna resign Santana.

"I don't care about feelings." - Lou Piniella

by natetheskate on Nov 28, 2007 11:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

this isn't for this year

No way this trade is for this year. BS knows we need to have an awesome team come 2010. Put the parts in place now and watch in 08. Add another part or two and contend in 09... shoudln't need to make additions in 2010..

With that said, I like this. It bolsters the offense from our pitching. Pridie is definitely a 4th OF in my opinion. If, however, this wasn't an outlier, we just raped TB bad.

by diehardtwinsfan on Nov 28, 2007 9:08 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

actually

I don't think thats true. I think the opposite is true. They don't have to field a competitive team in 2010 and it will yield large revenues for the Pohlads. They don't really need to field an awesome team until 2012.

by TMoney on Nov 28, 2007 10:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Not Rincon...

Well according to the Twins official site, Juan Rincon was replaced by Eduardo Morlan in the deal.

Damn.

Can anyone say now that we came out ahead? Anyone?

by eahnpurato on Nov 28, 2007 10:24 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Ouch...

that really hurts.

We just lost $3 M AND have to deal Rincon to someone else now.

Plus we just lost our future closer.

Time to rape some other team for one again.

by djskilbr on Nov 28, 2007 10:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Defense

Just a quick comparison of Bartlett's defense at SS versus Harris' using the plus/minus system (which is my personal favorite for easily accessible defensive metrics):

Bartlett in 2007: +18 (tied for 4th in the majors)
Harris in 2007: -19 (third from the bottom in the majors, behind HRam and Jeter)

I know Harris may not be viewed as a SS for 2008, but still, that is a crazy difference. By the way, Bartlett ranks second in baseball in SS plus/minus rankings from 2005-2007, behind only the incomparable Adam Everett.

by Bobomojo on Nov 29, 2007 12:44 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Ug

Ug, I didn't want to see that.

How is his second base play?

Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on Nov 29, 2007 1:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Are you getting those...

...from the Bill James Handbook?

by ubelmann on Nov 29, 2007 2:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The Good and the Bad and the Ugly

I guess TB wouldn't turn the deal unless it was Morlan instead of Rincon...that's obviously the bad.

Young and Harris both seem to have some pop in their bats, and Smith is at least willing to make a deal...that's the good.

I've also heard that they both are a little unsure of the strike zone parameters, and there is the Harris anvil glove problem...that's the ugly.

by Skippy tastes better than Jiff on Nov 29, 2007 1:54 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Ugliest

I just read in PP that there is a strong rumor that the Twins are thinking of trading Nathan to Milwaukee and making Rincon the closer. If that's the actual plan, I'll sue for undue pain and suffering inflicted by Twins management.

by Skippy tastes better than Jiff on Nov 29, 2007 5:33 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Closer

That is just plain stupid judging by the season Rincon had last year. Neshek can close now. I would even rather have Crain closing.

by WITwinsfan on Nov 29, 2007 9:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

santana

looks like a Santana for Reyes, Milledge, and a pitching prospect now make the best trade scenario for Johan.... Or they could just keep Santana.....

by doofus04 on Nov 29, 2007 10:13 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

I'd prefer Santana for

Kemp, LaRoche & Billingsly. That could give you this very talented, but inexperienced, batting order:
CF Matt Kemp C Joe Mauer LF Delmon Young 1B Justin Morneau RF Michael Cuddyer DH Jason Kubel 3B Andy LaRoche 2B Brendan Harris SS Alexi Casilla
It's a pipe dream, but it's my pipe dream.

by Jesse on Nov 29, 2007 10:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Potential in there

interesting that there's 7-8 guys in that lineup who could hit 20+ homeruns (15+ for sure)

P.S. if Kelly Theiser reports again that a pitcher had a bad start because he didn't keep the ball down, I might have to kill myself.

by caseintheface on Nov 29, 2007 11:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Harris at 3rd base?

someone posted this on LEN3's blog, very interesting -- looks like Harris played a lot of third base in the minors, as well as second and short.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/H/brendan-harris.shtml

While it does seem from various comments that he maybe can't handle short defensively, the glass half full way of looking at it is his defense at 2nd and 3rd is so good he can even play some short. Sounds like he'd be an upgrade over anything we have at those two positions right now, so if nothing else, he's insurance, or flexibility to take the best guys in trades and plug them in wherever.

I hate to give up a good fielding, good-hitting, low-paid, starting shortstop, with no decent replacement at hand. But knowing the Twins' history of trades for minor leaguers, I'd have to say that it's quite likely Pridie and Harris will both be starters within a year, and maybe become fixtures at their positions for years. Remember that's how we got Bartlett in the first place.

by by jiminy on Nov 29, 2007 12:08 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Brian Buchanan

I think it was ol' lumberjack Buchanan who netted Bartlett in the first place if I remember right.

P.S. if Kelly Theiser reports again that a pitcher had a bad start because he didn't keep the ball down, I might have to kill myself.

by caseintheface on Nov 29, 2007 12:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Harris

is poor defensively. This is something I originally put in my Redux for last night (before Explorer screwed me), but his decent arm doesn't make up for much if he can't get to the ball. Harris played as well as he could in the time he was given last summer, but I really hope we aren't forced to start him. If we HAVE to start him, scouting reports have said that second base is best for him in the field.

But he does give us even more flexibility at 3B, SS & 2B, and historically he's a better hitter than Punto. Harris hustles, he puts in the effort, but he'll be best suited as a backup. If he gets as many plate appearances as he did with the Rays last year, he's likely to lose production at the plate. His numbers dipped in the second half last year, and while that could be attributed to any number of things, none of them would make playing him as a regular justifiable.

As for Pridie, I have less faith in him than in Harris. Pridie was with the Twins from December 2005 to March 2006, but was eventually sent back to Tampa. His '05 was injury-shortened to something like 27 games, his follow-up in '06 was hideous, and then suddenly he raked between AA and AAA last summer. Defensively I've read anywhere from "not bad" to "above average", which should earn him some time. He's talented enough to be a role player, but unless something drastically changes he profiles as a guy who might get regular time if he finds a way to walk more often, and finds himself on the right team at the right time. I just hope that team isn't the Twins.

by Jesse on Nov 29, 2007 1:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Pridie = Tyner

That's a 2008 statement. But Pridie has upside and Tyner does not. If Pridie turned a corner last year, he could be a diamond in the rough. He's a decent fourth outfielder right now. But I predict the Twins will tender Tyner a contract and let the two battle it out for fourth outfielder job.

Harris could platoon with Buscher as a fall-back. But best bet he's viewed as an upgrade over L-Rod.

Neither player is a starter on a team that's building for the future. But they both are decent bench options now and in the future.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Nov 29, 2007 1:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

How Can

How can you say that Harris is so bad? He hit .286/.343/.434 last year in over 550 PA last year, which is above average for second base, the position he's likely to play. He has a year LESS service time than Bartlett as well as being a year younger. The offensive cut off for SS is lower, so Bartlett and punto make mroe adequette SS than 2B.

Bartlett was my favorite Twin, but I'm not so low on Harris...

Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on Nov 29, 2007 1:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

I'm also not getting this... Harris put up good numbers last year at the major league level, and while admittedly I'm not experienced at interpreting minor league numbers, his look a whole lot better than Casilla's.

by BeefMaster on Nov 29, 2007 2:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Happy with just

Unfortunately it looks like Smith was so interested in Delmon that he settled for Harris and Pridie. Where as Tampa really looked to upgrade over obvious flaws, their bullpen and there defense. Pridie is maybe upgrading the 4th outfielder position, but then that would mean you'll have to do something with Tyner (who Gardy loves). Same with Harris, he looks to be a solid offensive backup for 3 different defensive positions, but then you technically you're replacing what Punto should be (although he's Gardy's love child and will probably play in 150 games again unless you find a way to get rid of him). So while Tampa received 3 guys they can immediately have starting in there mix (Morlan would probably be a bit over his head for half a season) we got one starter and 2 fringe starters at best. Really there better suited for backups. And frankly that's what we've always settled for in Minnesota, fringe starters. Guys who would really be backing up or roll playing on a contending team. Smith just better have something up his sleeve because frankly having an infield with Harris at 3B, Casilla at 2B and Punto at SS is very scary.

P.S. if Kelly Theiser reports again that a pitcher had a bad start because he didn't keep the ball down, I might have to kill myself.

by caseintheface on Nov 29, 2007 1:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

not good, but not Nick

True, Harris at 3B does not sound like the lineup of a contender. But if he's good enough to keep Punto from ever starting there, that's something.

(Unless his defense is so bad it makes you miss Nick Punto.)

Maybe we should ask for Reyes AND Wright for Santana -- and then trade Nathan for Cano! Your infield is set. And then package Punto and Tyner for Hughes; and the rights to Monroe for a better, younger DH: And we're done! Wait, we still need a CF...make that Reyes, Wright, and Beltran. There we go.

I don't know why all these trade rumors are so fascinating, they're all meaningless unless they happen. It's so surreal for something to really be done now, it feels like a dream. The rumors seem more familiar and real. I can't believe Delmon Young is really a Twin. (And we now have no shortstop.) But Delmon Young is a Twin!

by by jiminy on Nov 29, 2007 2:29 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

WHy

Why does Harris have to play 3rd? Why not 2nd?

Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on Nov 29, 2007 2:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Here here!

Couldn't have said it better.

by adam on Nov 29, 2007 2:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Harris at 2nd base?

I'm liking the thought of Harris at 2nd base more than at 3rd or short. Harris's numbers last year are pretty damn good:

.286 .343 .434 .777

For a guy in his first full season, that's not bad at all, and they could even improve.

My guess is that would be right around the league average for second basemen. Considering he's virtually free, would make him a real asset at 2nd base, if he can field the position.

Harris might already be top of the depth chart at 2nd base. Neither Punto or Casilla have shown they can hit a lick, so 2nd is as big a need as short. And if Casilla moves to short, his bat is less of a liability there. I wouldn't be surprised to see Harris manning second next April.

Does anyone know where to find the major league average hitting stats by position, by the way?

by by jiminy on Nov 30, 2007 3:55 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Makes sense

I forget where I read this, but Smith is quoted somewhere saying the needs going into the offseason were 3B, CF and DH. The Delmon trade only helped with the DH problem, assuming you move Kubel there. SO perhaps he sees Harris as the probable second baseman. But in Sansavere's Q&A today, he deferred that to Gardy. He did say versatility is a plus with Harris.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Nov 30, 2007 4:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Designated Fielder

I think baseball needs to do what football does...have different players on each side of the ball! I want my defensive second baseman (Punto?), and then my offensive second baseman (Harris?).

...okay, it's not the "perfect" solution...

by Jesse on Nov 30, 2007 4:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Not Perfect

But I like what you're thinking...

You could increase the roster size by 4. I mean some dudes could play both ways (snicker) so you wouldn't have to increase by 8. Think of the benefits.

You could even expand this further - designated runners. Wouldn't this make someone like Bonds even more valuable?

by GACTwinFan on Nov 30, 2007 4:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Move the DH?

Can you have a DH for a position player instead of the pitcher? I recall that being legal in legion ball - I had a friend who once played right field and was DH for, which had to have been the most depressing starting assignment ever.

If it's legal, the Twins should consider this when Johan pitches. I'm not sure whether I'm joking or not.

by BeefMaster on Nov 30, 2007 4:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Slightly above average, actually

Harris' OPS last year was good for an OPS+ of 106 - he was a bit above average for the league in general, not just for second base.

For reference, the AL average for 2Bs last year was .284/.339/.416, and the league average overall was .271/.338/.423 - 2B isn't quite as weak an offensive position as I'd thought.

by BeefMaster on Nov 30, 2007 4:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

virtual "freeness" is meaningless...

Only if you spend that money on some other need.

I know your point was "virtually free" is a bonus. Nonetheless, I'd rather pay Santana $15m/year to be #1 pitcher than paying Gil Meche $7m/year to be #1 pitcher. More importantly, if the Twins have $15m floating around as part of their stated budget and we plug a .286/.777 batter at second for $350,000 when we could have a .312/.895 hitter for $4m, who the hell cares about the savings, (other than the Pohlads,) if you don't DO anything with the money saved?

Don't mean to jump on one small statement, I just am a little frustrated at the fact that we don't know what Bill Smith is doing yet. I can see stockpiling some money on a league average 2nd baseman if he's going to spend that money somewhere else (this year OR next) but without that knowledge we are stuck evaluating individuals in a planning vacuum.

by montanatwinsfan on Nov 30, 2007 7:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm a bit frustrated...

...also that we don't know what Wild Bill's plan is just yet, but that does have one benefit. I don't think anyone else really knows exactly which direction he's going in, either. That ought to help him, if only slightly, in negotiations. I'm willing to wait until the end of the off-season to see how everything shakes out.

by ubelmann on Nov 30, 2007 7:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I hear ya,

and I'll up you one by reminding myself that there are some reasons to attempt to transfer some of the negative frustrations of uncertainty into the positives of anticipation. I'll try and think of the uncertainties as unopened Christmas packages, when they're all opened, there just might be something good.

by montanatwinsfan on Nov 30, 2007 9:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

x

sometime you just get more underwear for christmas too.

Although I agree to wait and see how everything shakes out. There are too many questions and movable pieces that the Twins have to be negative at all at this point. I am optimistic just because Bill is willing to trade players to get better.

by doofus04 on Dec 1, 2007 11:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You can find them on ESPN

Just go to team batting stats, and sort by position.

He would have been league average at 2b last year.

What really struck me though is that he would have been FOURTH at 3b! Man, 3b dropped off last year for the whole league in a big way. Injuries (like Chavez and Blalock--ahem, roids, ahem-in Blalock's case) I suppose are a part of that.

by djskilbr on Nov 30, 2007 6:29 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

In the AL...

...there were also a lot of guys at 3B who are good or really good defenders (in no particular order--Chavez, Beltre, Inge, Iwamura, Figgins, Punto, Lowell, maybe a couple others), so teams have been willing to put up with less at the plate. Third base is historically a weird position where in some sense you are expected to hit like a first basemen and field a pretty difficult position.

by ubelmann on Nov 30, 2007 7:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Definitely...

I would say 3b defense on the whole is much better now.

That's a solid point. 3b just might be the toughest position to really be happy with because you're expected to be very good defensively, have a great arm, and also have power.

by djskilbr on Dec 1, 2007 11:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs