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Resign Hunter?

Sid is reporting that he is "100 percent sure" that the Twins will find a way to keep Torii Hunter long enough for him to play in the new ballpark.

Most of the blogosphere had Torii traded several times over the last couple of years. So it would shock more than a few if Torii signs a long-term deal after the season. On Friday night Seth Stohs implied he didn't think it likely: "There is talk that Torii Hunter could get a four year, $60 million contract from someone after the season. Any Twins fans out there that really think that they should lock him up for that price?"

I have been one of his lone supporters over the last two years. And I will once again buck the trend by saying that he is worth $60 million over four years in this market. I might not have projected that he would be worth it two years ago. But a couple of unexpected things have happened since, and I now think they should try to lock him up through the 2011 season as soon as they can if they can get him at that price.

The first unexpected thing is that he has improved his game despite his age. The average age for players to begin to decline is somewhere between 28 and 30, depending on which expert you believe. So as Hunter ran past the 30-year-old milestone, you would think his skills would begin to decline. Prior to this year, we did see some decline in speed, but nobody knew whether that was due to injury or not. Otherwise, his numbers in 2006 were on par with a very consistently productive career.

As we see a healthy Hunter once again this year, we see no lapse in physical skills. He's got his old speed and first step back, evidenced by his defense and stealing. And we are seeing a much more patient hitter. He no longer guesses, but he takes pitchers pitches and puts good swings on hitters' pitches, as evidenced by his current 20-game hit streak. So by all accounts, he is one of the rare outliers who bucks the trend of  decline as he has past his 30th birthday.

Normally I would say it's a bad risk to sign a player after his 28th birthday to a long-term contract. The only condition for breaking this rule is if the player is one of the rare outliers who has a long plateau in his age/performance bell curve. In the history of the game, there have been outliers of this trend. Most of them are in the Hall of Fame. I'm not saying that Hunter is a future Hall of Famer. But if he continues to play consistently into his late 30s, he might just get there. And we're not talking about a contract into his late 30s. We're talking about a contract into his mid-30s.

The second thing that has happened in the last two years is the Twins have failed to develop the two commodities they would need to replace Hunter: A major-league caliber center fielder and a right-handed power bat. If they let Hunter walk, it is clear that they would need to go outside the organization for a decent center fielder and a right handed power bat. There is little chance of getting a center fielder as good as Hunter without exacting a huge price. And it would also be difficult to get the right handed power bat, either at third or DH, to replace Hunter's presence in the line-up. To get one player with the combination of skills that Hunter possesses is perhaps only possible by resigning Hunter.

Two laments we often hear from fans is the Twins' inability to keep their star players into their 30s, and the Twins' inability to sign free agent players to fill holes. I think the first one is overblown. If the Twins really want to keep a player, they pay the price and find a way to make it work within their budget. The second one is true. But needless to say, these two laments would take a big hit if the Twins were able to sign Hunter.

So what would it take to fit $15 million a year into the budget? Well, we're really only talking about a tight budget for two years. In 2008, the Twins will need to find additional money for raises to Mauer, Morneau, and Cuddyer. a $3 million raise to Hunter might be tough. But consider that $9 million will come off the books when Ortiz, Silva, and Ponson leave. So the Twins will need to save money on starting pitching to afford to keep the four studs in the heart of their order together. Fortunately, 2008 and 2009 will be good years to do so with all the young pitchers who will be ready by next year.

I'm not saying it will be easy. It would make it much tougher, for example, to fit Santana and Nathan into the budget in 2009. But if the Twins expect to contend into the next decade, I think they have to lock up Hunter for at least three more years. And, after all, we're just talking about $3 million more per year than we are paying him now. It would likely take more than that in this market to replace him. And you never know what you're getting with outside free agents. So it's best just to resign him and figure out a way to make your budget work.

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Two things
  1.  I would worry a lot about the value of Hunter's defense in 3 or 4 years.
  2.  I don't think it is realistic if we want any hope at keeping Santana.  If we don't think we can do that anyway, well, maybe.
even Hunter himself has pretty much let it know he doesn't think he'll be wearing a Twins uniform after this year.  All those years watching his friends be let go have, for better or worse, totally jaded him to any semblance of team loyalty beyond his contract.
Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on May 5, 2007 11:39 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Don't know about point 1, but point 2 ...
I think Hunter will still have enough to play one of the corner outfield positions in 3 or 4 years.  He'd be a step up from what we have in left now.

You're right about putting together a budget, though.  Santana's the "big sign"; IMO, the Twins believe the core group they "must" keep together is Santana, Mauer & Morneau.  That's where their 'big bucks' are going to go.

by BD57 on May 7, 2007 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This I agree.....
Who says Torii has to stay in center. Could he not play right or left as his abilities "decrease."

And there's always DH. The Twins always seem to be searching for a right-handed swinger (who can also play the field).

Of course, I also thought Koskie would be a great signee to eventually move him to the DH role.

So, what do I know........

by twintown on May 7, 2007 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

As
As a right fielder he has massively less value.
Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on May 7, 2007 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The issue for the Twins
Really comes down to construction of a lineup.

In the best of worlds, Hunter hits from the 6-hole whether he's playing center or left.

IF (huge "if", granted) they found a solid defensive center-fielder who was a true (i.e., effective) lead off hitter, then moving Hunter to left would make the lineup better (we're lacking a real lead off guy now) and the Twins defense better.

Now, what's that worth to the Twins?  Dunno; but it's probably less than putting Hunter in center for four years will be worth to some of the clubs that have too much money & not enough sense.

by BD57 on May 7, 2007 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Big Three
Honestly, I'm not even sure the Twins will be able to keep the three you mention - I'm going to echo Jesse's prediction from earlier in the season that Morneau will be playing in New York in 2010.  I think Santana will command enough on the free agent market that the Twins will have to choose between the M&Ms to keep Santana, and I think Justin is the odd man out unless he and/or Joe takes a big hometown discount.

I'm not opposed to keeping Hunter, but I just don't think it's realistic given what a premium center fielder will get in the open market and the great risk of decline.  As for moving him to LF or RF, that's fine, but as Adam said, he loses a lot of his value, especially in right - he's not really a step up from Cuddyer there offensively (although he'd be a great defensive RF), and Cuddyer will be much cheaper, because he'll be paid like an average-hitting right fielder, not a good-hitting center fielder.

by BeefMaster on May 8, 2007 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

2010
Damnit, Morneau isn't going to be ANYWHERE until 2011.  We control until then just like Mauer.  It's called arbitration.
Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on May 8, 2007 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Are you sure?
I thought the free agency timer went "3 years of serfdom, 3 years of arbitration, free agent".  Morneau is in his first year of arbitration and doesn't have a long-term contract, so unless I'm remembering this wrong, that makes him eligible for free agency after the 2009 season, barring a multi-year deal in the next two years.

That would come at a decent time for the Twins, with the new stadium revenues coming up, but if he puts up a couple more 2006-esque seasons and the Twins resign Santana for whatever insane dollar amount he'll command, it'd probably still be a stretch for the budget.

by BeefMaster on May 8, 2007 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Super 2
Morneau was a Super 2 in arbitration this year. That  means he has four years of arbitration, not three. Counting 2007, he'll have arbitration into 2011.
Free Kevin Slowey.

by cmathewson on May 8, 2007 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He said it
Cmath said it.  The 3 and 3 rule is only a rough guideline.  It's actually arbitration at three years, or about two years 155 days and free agency at six years.  Morneau was below three years in the 2 years and 160-some day area, so he'll start the 2010 year with only a couple weeks until he'll qualify for free agency, which of course means he can't declare as one until after the 2010 season.
Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on May 8, 2007 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks Adam...
...for getting to the 4 years of arbitration before the rest of us.  I still think they will keep Morneau and Hunter will be the odd man out, unless Management decides to take a big hit in 2009.

I think Mr. Ryan may have been smart however in not breaking the bank for Morneau, there is always a chance that his 4 months of last year will be the best 4 months of his career.  Mr. Ryan may be in much better position to negotiate a long-term contract this winter.

by roger on May 8, 2007 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My bad
I remembered that Morneau was a Super 2, but I forgot how that affected his free agency clock.  Sorry for the misunderstanding.

by BeefMaster on May 8, 2007 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have to agree with BOTH of you...
I'd love to keep Hunter because I really don't believe in Span, and our offense would take a big hit without him.  

But at the same time, if he costs us Santana, I'm against it.  If he costs us Nathan (in 2009) but we still keep Santana, I'd probably be okay with it, because as good as Nathan is, I think we can at least somewhat replace him from within.  Hunter just isn't ready for that.

Ideally though, I'd really like to sign him to a 3 year deal, with perhaps an option for a 4th year.  That would allow him to play in the new stadium for a year, while also giving us the hope that Benson could be ready to replace him in 2011, which I view as realistic.  

I'm not sure Hunter would be amenable to that, but if it was for 3 years, at 15 per, AND it doesn't cost us Santana, I think I'd be willing to do it.  

It amazes me because 2 months ago if you asked me if I'd be willing to pay $15 million per for Hunter, I'd say no way.

by djskilbr on May 6, 2007 12:28 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Two months...
Torii isn't any different than he was two months ago.  He's still an overall above average CF in his early 30s who will soon start to gradually lose footspeed and batspeed.  And given his all-out style of play, he's also a risk to miss games in bunches (and indeed, has already missed some games due to injury this year).  I love the way the guy plays the game, and if money/contract length weren't considerations, I'd love to keep him around.

But the Twins haven't gotten to this point by holding tightly to their aging, 30+ homegrown talent, and I don't think that now is the time to change that strategy.  Hunter is a star, but not a superstar.  He's riding a hot streak where he looks like a superstar, but he's still the same guy who hits about .270/.330/.470 year in and year out.

by ubelmann on May 6, 2007 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Patient?
Great post, but I've got to address the comment that Torii has evolved into a patient hitter.  I'm not sure where that idea started, but it's a sentiment oft repeated as of late and folks seem to be taking it for granted that it's true.

The thing is, it just isn't the case.  He's the same old impatient Torii he's always been.  If anything, he's actively chosen to be less patient.

He's working a 4% walk rate so far this year, just half of his usual unremarkable 8%.  He's averaged 3.5 pitches per plate appearance for 4 years now and there's been no change in that.  The funny thing about Torii is that for the first half of last year, he did become more patient.  He took an unheard of (for him) 38 walks in the first half of last year.  For most hitters that would be a great thing, but for him it didn't work.  He lost power and average both.  

In the second half, he went back to hackin' away, taking just 7 free passes.  Lo and behold, his slugging percentage jumped 100 points and BA went up 30. As would be expected, his OBP went down a titch, but it was a small price to pay for the other gains.

He's sticking with the aggressive approach this year and, once again, it's working for him.  Much as we might groan about Torii flailing away at the first pitch all of the time, that's apparently what we want him doing.  He's proven that a free-swinging Torii outproduces a conservative Torii, however counterintuitive that may be.  He's an odd duck.

None of which helps us decide whether or not to sign him for 60mil/4yrs.  I'd vote no; I think if we go with Span, even if he doesn't hit, we can spend less than 15 mil and upgrade, say, 3B or DH more than enough to offset the offensive loss.  In the meantime, Torii isn't likely to continue to perform at his current level over the season, much less a 4 year contract.  This year's stats are driven by a .367 BABIP, and there's little that suggests that number won't dip back to his career norm of sub-.300.  Add in the risk of decline from age and 4 years looks to me like it is just too much of a risk for this club's payroll.

Regardless, it sure is a blast watching him run this year.  I'll miss him if he goes.

by nightclubdwight on May 6, 2007 1:25 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Nice
Nice rundown.  To all that I'll add this:  Now we all want him, during one of his hot stretches.

But let's wait until the end of one of his terrible months, and then we'll talk about bringing him back.  You gotta' take the bad with the good with Hunter, and we need some bad in our memory before we're making these decisions.

Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on May 6, 2007 1:45 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

2009 is the problem...
...I did an article for Scout.com several weeks ago addressing the dollars related to resigning Hunter.  2008 is not a problem as the Twins will likely increase their payroll to the $75-78mm range.  With Castillo replaced by Casilla for a $5.3mm savings and White likely gone for another $2.3mm savings, Hunter will certainly fit in next year's budget.  

The problem comes in 2009.  Assuming they resign Santana, Cuddyer and Morneau, those three together with Mauer will likely earn at least $23.0mm more than they are making in 2007.  Assuming other raises (Nathan, etc) offset the savings from White and Castilla, and the Twins are looking at a 2009 payroll of at least $95.0mm with Hunter at his current $12.0mm, in the Dome.  

Personally, I am very happy with Hunter's improved play over the last few years when he was injured.  Many Hunter fans will say that Mr. Pohlad should open up his pocketbook for one year and keep Hunter.  I think those who criticize Mr. Pohlad are probably mistaken as I expect the budget is set by Terry Ryan and submitted to the Pohlad's for approval.  I expect that it has been this way for some time and it is Mr. Ryan who determines the budget based upon what he believes should be spent to be competitive.  Will Mr. Ryan ask for $100mm in 2009 knowing that it will mean a $20.0mm loss for the team?  I don't know, but I do know that several senior Execs have frequently stated that Torii is the face of the Twins and is thought of very highly by the people who make the decisions.  And having a team in place to compete for a Championship in 2010 would be a perfect way to open the new stadium...and Torii Hunter could be a key piece to that team, assuming he can stay healthy for another 4 years.  

by roger on May 6, 2007 10:47 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

They won't resign him, and they shouldn't
For a few reasons:
  1. The market. Implicit in the diary above is that 4/60 gets it done. I doubt it.  I expect someone would pay him 6/85.  That's a much different situation, and somewhere the Twins almost certainly cannot go.  And Hunter would be nuts to give the Twins a "hometown discount" of that magnitude.  He won't, and he shouldn't. Go get paid.  
  2. Hunter as a player.  The diary makes a massive assumption that there is relatively little risk of decline over the next 4 seasons. I think this is unwarranted.  He is likely to decline over that time, especially defensively. Also, injuries are a big risk, especially with his recent history. Yes, its true that some players "buck the trend," but there is no reason that I can see to expect Hunter to do so.  Realistically, he already has.  His games played went from 154, to 138, to 98 over 3 seasons before rebounding to 147 last season. We'll see about this year. (Hunter has actually only been over 150 once in his career). Furthermore, injured or not, (and I don't understand why you would not see injury as decline), his defense isn't what it was, and it never will be again.
Look, Branch Rickey was a smart guy.  He understood that you shouldn't make big commitments to guys over 30.  Whether or not, as the diary says, the unwillingness to do so is in fact a "lament" of Twins fans, it's smart.  

Hunter is a real good ballplayer.  Replacing that sort of production will not be easy.  But the next 4-6 seasons of his career are inevitably not going to be worth what he's going to get paid.

by Eric in Madison on May 6, 2007 11:50 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Great discussion
I was hoping to get the full range of opinions on this. Thanks everyone.

Eric, you're right. I did make two assumptions, the fist is the relatively conservative salary estimate for Hunter. The second is the optimistic perspective that he is one of the outliers in the standard age/performance bell curve. On this, it is betting against the house, I realize. But you sometimes have to do it. The bell curve is an average of all ballplayers, most of whom didn't spend enough time working out than they needed to until it was too late. Guys like Yount, Molitor, Ripken, and Jeter are unusual in that they kept their bodies young by exercising compulsively. The same is true for Hunter. This gives him a better than average chance of beating the odds. While it's till a big risk and I understand Ryan's reluctance to take it, it's the kind of bet that every GM needs to take from time to time.

And nightclub, the relevant statistic I would cite is pitches seen. I don't have those numbers in front of me, but I know Hunter is going a lot deeper into counts and having longer at bats, which increases the odds of getting a good pitch to hit. He's not walking all that much because his goal is to hit a hitters' pitch and not to walk. But he's waiting longer for that pitch than he ever has in his career.

I agree with Roger that Ryan sets the budget. But I also think that he sets it with Dave St. Peter's influence. St. Peter tells him what he thinks the revenue situation will be, and Ryan spends as much of the revenue as he can to return Pohlad little or no profit. Any profit they get is the result of better than expected ticket sales.

Revenue should be between $40 and $50 million higher in the new ballpark than in the Metrodome. So 2010 should not be the problem. But 2009 will be, unless the Twins count advance ticket purchases against the 2009 balance sheet rather than the 2010 balance sheet. A lot of fans are buying season tickets in the new stadium as we speak, and that will accelerate as we approach 2010. I expect the Twins to sell out their season tickets in 2009. If any of this revenue hits the 2009 balance sheet, it might help them get over the hump with player salaries.

Free Matt Garza.

by cmathewson on May 6, 2007 12:54 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Sorry
You know I love you cmath, but this is just flat wrong:

"And nightclub, the relevant statistic I would cite is pitches seen. I don't have those numbers in front of me, but I know Hunter is going a lot deeper into counts and having longer at bats, which increases the odds of getting a good pitch to hit. He's not walking all that much because his goal is to hit a hitters' pitch and not to walk. But he's waiting longer for that pitch than he ever has in his career."

As nightclub said, he isn't (just go to MLB.com and take the number of pitches stat divided by plate appearances) doing any such thing.  His pitches per PA this year, when he's been so hot?  3.5.  All last year, when he supposedly increased his patience (and turned in a year almost identical to all his others but with about three extra home runs)?  3.5.  Two years ago (2005) in another typical year?  3.5.  2004, 3.5.  2003, 3.5.

He's been shockingly consistent in this, and most regards and hasn't changed numbers at all.

I'm not worried about Hunters ofense for the next four years, but his defense has already declined from age and injuries.  It is still very good, but not like it used to be, and he's going t get payed for that old D.  He'd be worth it in 08 and maybe 09, but after that I don't think he'd be able to put up the D.

Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on May 6, 2007 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Like I said,
I didn't have the numbers in front of me, so it is just intuition, which apparently is faulty. I've just seen him take a lot of pitchers' pitches since he started to listen to Joe Vavra that I never saw him take before. But obviously, there's no numerical correlation to my observations. So I'll shut up about his patience.
Free Matt Garza.

by cmathewson on May 6, 2007 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I
I think maybe he isn't so blatantly susceptible to the sliders low and away anymore, but he takes nasty cuts at fastballs in the dirt now instead.

It all kind of depends on how he's going.  If he's good, he lays off the ridiculously bad pitches, but still takes a hard cut at the first decent fastball he sees.  If he is going bad, he misses that fastball and then swings at the next pitch - the splitter in the dirt.

Everytime I see Hunter get behind 02 or 1-2 against a smart pitcher, I just think "he's screwed."  Although, most hitters are screwed down against a good pitcher, but none more than Hunter.

Well, Maybe Jacque Jones.

Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on May 6, 2007 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree...
...that their budget is set with the intent of spending 100% of their revenue with NO cash-on-cash return to Mr. Pohlad (I expect he gets lots of tax benefits and is due a huge windfall in paper appreciation when the ballpark opens).  I believe I have heard Mr. Ryan say this on several occassions over the past few years.  I don't know whether or not they will borrow from 2010 to pay Hunter in 2009, to sign him they would have to or get Torii to do some crazy contract that would pay him something like $15mm in 2008, $5mm in 2009, $20mm in 2010 and $20mm in 2011.  Who knows, maybe he would do something like that...if the league/union allows it.

by roger on May 6, 2007 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I
I don't think it would be allowed, and I don't think it would be gone for.  It would only make sense if Pohlad allowed a sort of cash advance on 2010's budget, which also isn't realistic.
Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on May 6, 2007 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great run-down CMath...
I agree with both you and Roger; 2009 is the issue.  If we can somehow get creative with other salaries for that year, I think it's doable.  And I really don't see Torii getting above $15 million/year.  I just don't.  I think a "hometown discount" would be more like $14 million/per, and I actually think he'd take that.  It's just a matter if we can do it.

As for saving money on Torii and upgrading at 3b/DH with the money, have you looked at the FA possibilities there next year?  It's not pretty.  Mike Lowell is pretty much the best 3b available.  DH doesn't offer much either.  I think our best bet just might be paying Hunter, unless we can make a trade for salary at DH or 3b.  

by djskilbr on May 6, 2007 1:57 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Again...
where are we going to dump that money saved on Hunter next year?  Unless we do a trade, there are NOT good DH/3b candidates out there in FA this season.  I'd rather spend it on Hunter than Mike Lowell and another scrub.

by djskilbr on May 7, 2007 7:22 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

As
As we have repeatedly said, the problem isn't next year, it is the year after that, the year after that, and the year after that...
Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on May 7, 2007 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hunter's decline
As I have said, I think he is an outlier. I don't blame anyone for sticking with the scientific perspective that it is unlikely that he is an outlier (by definition). Odds are he is already in his decline and the temporary streak he's on since late last August will end sooner or later.

But I have not seen the decline you point out in a couple of places above. He struggled defensively last year, and there is some question whether those struggles were injury related or a feature of long-term decline. I think it's the former.

Prior to hurting his foot in June, he made some of the most spectacular plays of his career. That catch against Ordonez in May was his best ever. With a bad foot, he couldn't get the good jump and he couldn't keep his head still while running, nor could he run nearly as fast as we have seen. The results shocked us by contrast to what we were used to seeing. But they were typical results for an average center fielder.

One blogger here has suggested that Santana had a horrible month of April, only because we expect dominance every time out. I would say the same perspectives are true of Torii: He seemed horrible only because he was not the usual super human. But that defensive slump was temporary.

We started to see a healthier Hunter last September when he made some outstanding plays. This year, he is once again getting to balls only few would get to. For example, he got to a screaming line drive in the opposite gap the other night, and I don't know of another center fielder in the AL outside of Ichiro who would have caught that one.

He's no longer the best center fielder in the game. But there are less than a handful better. And even if one or two a year pass him, he still will be in the upper eschelon for the next three years at least. When you put well above average defense together with the bat of a typical third baseman, he earns his keep.

If the Twins had options on the farm, I would have a different opinion. But I just don't see any above A ball, at least not any who can lead a team into contention. There are stop gaps, but few winning teams do so with a stop gap in center. So I stand by my opinion while respecting those who trust more to science than personal observation.

Free Matt Garza.

by cmathewson on May 7, 2007 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hunter....
Right now, the Twins can replace him with speed. But they need to replace his bat, too. An upgrade at third base or designated hitter would work wonders, but there is no near prospects in the system, and going outside the system for a bat to repalce Hunter's, even for a year or two, might prove as costly as picking Hunter up for 4 or more years.

Of course, signing Hunter means you could always trade him, too, before 2010 and really piss people off.

Someone up above mention Santana vs. M&M boys.

That's a major looksee for Terry Ryan and Co. Do you invest long-term in Johann or let him walk. If Santana gets injured, you are out a lot of salary. The sad part is that Johann won't hang around for just a 1 or 2-year extension, he needs a monster contract to stay.

Do our pitching prospects look that good? And can they carry us for five years and beyond before they, too, become over-priced throwers?

www.Twinscards.com

by twintown on May 8, 2007 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not just speed
If you asked 10 scouts who's a better center fielder (just defensively) between Span and Hunter, all 10 would say Hunter. Why? Jumps on balls. Speed can help a center fielder get to balls even if they get a bad jump. But getting a good jump is more important. Hunter is the best at this (though he has had trouble coming in this year). Span is mediocre at this. But he's the best in the system right now.

Why do we just think in terms of replacing Hunter? Why don't we think in terms of keeping his production and adding a good bat at third base and a good DH? I don't think it will do to get complacent. We need to get better. If all we're trying to do is replace Hunter, we'll still have major holes in the line-up, and this division keeps getting better. Status quo means fourth place next year.

For the record, I agree that the priorities should be Santana, Mauer, Morneau, and Hunter, in that order. I would put Nathan fifth because I think he's the easiest one to replace, and Cuddyer is a close sixth. Between Crain, Rincon, Neshek, Garza and Morlan, the Twins have a lot of closer candidates. But they are short on bats, especially right-handed bats.

Free Kevin Slowey.

by cmathewson on May 8, 2007 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with your priorities assessment CMath...
I really think we have to get Torii back just from a production standpoint.  Barring a trade, there just isn't anyone in FA in the next year or 2 that will replace him production wise in an area of need (3b/DH/CF).  So I think you almost have to re-sign him for that reason alone, as long as the terms aren't outlandish.

by djskilbr on May 8, 2007 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wish I were...
...in Rochester.  Reading whatever is available seems to indicate that Span MIGHT be making some real improvements to his game.  He has been successful on nearly every steal attempt, although he doesn't get on enough and has only 6 or 7.  In yesterday's game, or maybe the day before, it appears he made a great catch going back at the centerfield fence.  Now seeing it and reading about it may be two different things.  He also gunned a guy out at second in the same game.  

So there might be significant improvement and his average is moving up from the terrible average he started with...but lets remember that the first couple weeks they were playing every couple days and those games were in sub-zero to mid 30's weather.  I am hopeful he makes a huge improvement this season and will do the job in the future.  I also understand that he needs to take a big step forward to do so.

by roger on May 8, 2007 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Him
Him and Moses are the guys we're pulling for for sure, but neither has started to do it yet.  Both have more talented guys below them, but all those are too far away.
Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on May 8, 2007 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Span
I certainly hope he can continue to improve. But he is an athlete first and a ballplayer second. So his development will be slower than the naturals like Hrbek or Mauer. If he develops at the pace he has, he won't be ready next year. But some guys wake up one day and put it all together. So who knows?

Then again, some guys never learn how to hit a round ball with a round bat, though they can run the fastest, jump the highest and throw the hardest. A large part of Moneyball was about that very thing: Beane was an outstanding athlete but he never learned to be a good ballplayer.

It's an open question whether Span can take the next step, and it's unlikely that he can do it next year. Obviously, Ryan needs to assess the risk of using a cheap, green and underdeveloped guy or an expensive, experienced and aging guy. I don't envy him that choice.

Or he can get someone else, which seems the least probable option considering he is so concerned about character. A guy like Cameron will not cost much less than Hunter but will be a suitable replacement. Perhaps Crisp will be available. I don't know who else. That way might be harder than biting the bullet and signing Hunter.

Free Kevin Slowey.

by cmathewson on May 8, 2007 5:00 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

One guy I've always thought...
would be a good stopgap plan is Eric Byrnes.  And I've mentione it many times on this forum.

He's a RH bat that the D'Backs don't need with Young/Quentin/Gonzalez all in the mix (and Upton coming) and he has a similar skill set to Hunter, although he's not as good in any one area really.  But he does have pop and can play okay defense.  And he figures to be one of the best stopgap replacements available.  He'll be 31 years old to start next season.  Obviously not an ideal choice, but I'd do something like 3 years/$20 million to get him in the fold and see if Benson is ready by 2010 or so.  

Just a thought.

by djskilbr on May 8, 2007 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not even just about learning...
Beane was an outstanding athlete but he never learned to be a good ballplayer.

It's not always just a learning thing.  Running, jumping, throwing, that stuff all helps you in the field--but it doesn't really help you at the plate.  There's only so much you can do to improve your hand-eye coordination.  Some guys have it and some don't.  It takes a lot of talent to have good pitch recognition and quick reactions.  Some guys have it and some don't, but I don't think you really get to weed those guys out until you throw them up against the best of the best.

But your underlying point is the same.  Being a good athlete is not the same as being a good ballplayer.  The first helps the second, but only to a point.

by ubelmann on May 8, 2007 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right
That's basically what I was trying to say. I'm not so sure Span will ever be able to do that at the major league level. It's a big jump from AAA to the majors. He's got a long way to go before he is an adequate AAA player. And his baseball skills probably have a lower ceiling than his athletic skills. I hope he can get to the point of Juan Pierre, which would be his ceiling. If he can, it would seem he needs more than a year to get there. And it's a big if. But he'll get a shot at some point, and then we'll see.
Free Kevin Slowey.

by cmathewson on May 8, 2007 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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