Resign Hunter?
Sid is reporting that he is "100 percent sure" that the Twins will find a way to keep Torii Hunter long enough for him to play in the new ballpark.
Most of the blogosphere had Torii traded several times over the last couple of years. So it would shock more than a few if Torii signs a long-term deal after the season. On Friday night Seth Stohs implied he didn't think it likely: "There is talk that Torii Hunter could get a four year, $60 million contract from someone after the season. Any Twins fans out there that really think that they should lock him up for that price?"
I have been one of his lone supporters over the last two years. And I will once again buck the trend by saying that he is worth $60 million over four years in this market. I might not have projected that he would be worth it two years ago. But a couple of unexpected things have happened since, and I now think they should try to lock him up through the 2011 season as soon as they can if they can get him at that price.
The first unexpected thing is that he has improved his game despite his age. The average age for players to begin to decline is somewhere between 28 and 30, depending on which expert you believe. So as Hunter ran past the 30-year-old milestone, you would think his skills would begin to decline. Prior to this year, we did see some decline in speed, but nobody knew whether that was due to injury or not. Otherwise, his numbers in 2006 were on par with a very consistently productive career.
As we see a healthy Hunter once again this year, we see no lapse in physical skills. He's got his old speed and first step back, evidenced by his defense and stealing. And we are seeing a much more patient hitter. He no longer guesses, but he takes pitchers pitches and puts good swings on hitters' pitches, as evidenced by his current 20-game hit streak. So by all accounts, he is one of the rare outliers who bucks the trend of decline as he has past his 30th birthday.
Normally I would say it's a bad risk to sign a player after his 28th birthday to a long-term contract. The only condition for breaking this rule is if the player is one of the rare outliers who has a long plateau in his age/performance bell curve. In the history of the game, there have been outliers of this trend. Most of them are in the Hall of Fame. I'm not saying that Hunter is a future Hall of Famer. But if he continues to play consistently into his late 30s, he might just get there. And we're not talking about a contract into his late 30s. We're talking about a contract into his mid-30s.
The second thing that has happened in the last two years is the Twins have failed to develop the two commodities they would need to replace Hunter: A major-league caliber center fielder and a right-handed power bat. If they let Hunter walk, it is clear that they would need to go outside the organization for a decent center fielder and a right handed power bat. There is little chance of getting a center fielder as good as Hunter without exacting a huge price. And it would also be difficult to get the right handed power bat, either at third or DH, to replace Hunter's presence in the line-up. To get one player with the combination of skills that Hunter possesses is perhaps only possible by resigning Hunter.
Two laments we often hear from fans is the Twins' inability to keep their star players into their 30s, and the Twins' inability to sign free agent players to fill holes. I think the first one is overblown. If the Twins really want to keep a player, they pay the price and find a way to make it work within their budget. The second one is true. But needless to say, these two laments would take a big hit if the Twins were able to sign Hunter.
So what would it take to fit $15 million a year into the budget? Well, we're really only talking about a tight budget for two years. In 2008, the Twins will need to find additional money for raises to Mauer, Morneau, and Cuddyer. a $3 million raise to Hunter might be tough. But consider that $9 million will come off the books when Ortiz, Silva, and Ponson leave. So the Twins will need to save money on starting pitching to afford to keep the four studs in the heart of their order together. Fortunately, 2008 and 2009 will be good years to do so with all the young pitchers who will be ready by next year.
I'm not saying it will be easy. It would make it much tougher, for example, to fit Santana and Nathan into the budget in 2009. But if the Twins expect to contend into the next decade, I think they have to lock up Hunter for at least three more years. And, after all, we're just talking about $3 million more per year than we are paying him now. It would likely take more than that in this market to replace him. And you never know what you're getting with outside free agents. So it's best just to resign him and figure out a way to make your budget work.
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37 comments
Comments
Two things
- I would worry a lot about the value of Hunter's defense in 3 or 4 years.
- I don't think it is realistic if we want any hope at keeping Santana. If we don't think we can do that anyway, well, maybe.
by AdamOnFirst on May 5, 2007 11:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Don't know about point 1, but point 2 ...
You're right about putting together a budget, though. Santana's the "big sign"; IMO, the Twins believe the core group they "must" keep together is Santana, Mauer & Morneau. That's where their 'big bucks' are going to go.
by BD57 on May 7, 2007 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This I agree.....
And there's always DH. The Twins always seem to be searching for a right-handed swinger (who can also play the field).
Of course, I also thought Koskie would be a great signee to eventually move him to the DH role.
So, what do I know........
by twintown on May 7, 2007 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As
by AdamOnFirst on May 7, 2007 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The issue for the Twins
In the best of worlds, Hunter hits from the 6-hole whether he's playing center or left.
IF (huge "if", granted) they found a solid defensive center-fielder who was a true (i.e., effective) lead off hitter, then moving Hunter to left would make the lineup better (we're lacking a real lead off guy now) and the Twins defense better.
Now, what's that worth to the Twins? Dunno; but it's probably less than putting Hunter in center for four years will be worth to some of the clubs that have too much money & not enough sense.
by BD57 on May 7, 2007 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Big Three
I'm not opposed to keeping Hunter, but I just don't think it's realistic given what a premium center fielder will get in the open market and the great risk of decline. As for moving him to LF or RF, that's fine, but as Adam said, he loses a lot of his value, especially in right - he's not really a step up from Cuddyer there offensively (although he'd be a great defensive RF), and Cuddyer will be much cheaper, because he'll be paid like an average-hitting right fielder, not a good-hitting center fielder.
by BeefMaster on May 8, 2007 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
2010
by AdamOnFirst on May 8, 2007 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you sure?
That would come at a decent time for the Twins, with the new stadium revenues coming up, but if he puts up a couple more 2006-esque seasons and the Twins resign Santana for whatever insane dollar amount he'll command, it'd probably still be a stretch for the budget.
by BeefMaster on May 8, 2007 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Super 2
by cmathewson on May 8, 2007 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He said it
by AdamOnFirst on May 8, 2007 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks Adam...
I think Mr. Ryan may have been smart however in not breaking the bank for Morneau, there is always a chance that his 4 months of last year will be the best 4 months of his career. Mr. Ryan may be in much better position to negotiate a long-term contract this winter.
by roger on May 8, 2007 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My bad
by BeefMaster on May 8, 2007 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have to agree with BOTH of you...
But at the same time, if he costs us Santana, I'm against it. If he costs us Nathan (in 2009) but we still keep Santana, I'd probably be okay with it, because as good as Nathan is, I think we can at least somewhat replace him from within. Hunter just isn't ready for that.
Ideally though, I'd really like to sign him to a 3 year deal, with perhaps an option for a 4th year. That would allow him to play in the new stadium for a year, while also giving us the hope that Benson could be ready to replace him in 2011, which I view as realistic.
I'm not sure Hunter would be amenable to that, but if it was for 3 years, at 15 per, AND it doesn't cost us Santana, I think I'd be willing to do it.
It amazes me because 2 months ago if you asked me if I'd be willing to pay $15 million per for Hunter, I'd say no way.
by djskilbr on May 6, 2007 12:28 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Two months...
But the Twins haven't gotten to this point by holding tightly to their aging, 30+ homegrown talent, and I don't think that now is the time to change that strategy. Hunter is a star, but not a superstar. He's riding a hot streak where he looks like a superstar, but he's still the same guy who hits about .270/.330/.470 year in and year out.
by ubelmann on May 6, 2007 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Patient?
The thing is, it just isn't the case. He's the same old impatient Torii he's always been. If anything, he's actively chosen to be less patient.
He's working a 4% walk rate so far this year, just half of his usual unremarkable 8%. He's averaged 3.5 pitches per plate appearance for 4 years now and there's been no change in that. The funny thing about Torii is that for the first half of last year, he did become more patient. He took an unheard of (for him) 38 walks in the first half of last year. For most hitters that would be a great thing, but for him it didn't work. He lost power and average both.
In the second half, he went back to hackin' away, taking just 7 free passes. Lo and behold, his slugging percentage jumped 100 points and BA went up 30. As would be expected, his OBP went down a titch, but it was a small price to pay for the other gains.
He's sticking with the aggressive approach this year and, once again, it's working for him. Much as we might groan about Torii flailing away at the first pitch all of the time, that's apparently what we want him doing. He's proven that a free-swinging Torii outproduces a conservative Torii, however counterintuitive that may be. He's an odd duck.
None of which helps us decide whether or not to sign him for 60mil/4yrs. I'd vote no; I think if we go with Span, even if he doesn't hit, we can spend less than 15 mil and upgrade, say, 3B or DH more than enough to offset the offensive loss. In the meantime, Torii isn't likely to continue to perform at his current level over the season, much less a 4 year contract. This year's stats are driven by a .367 BABIP, and there's little that suggests that number won't dip back to his career norm of sub-.300. Add in the risk of decline from age and 4 years looks to me like it is just too much of a risk for this club's payroll.
Regardless, it sure is a blast watching him run this year. I'll miss him if he goes.
by nightclubdwight on May 6, 2007 1:25 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Nice
But let's wait until the end of one of his terrible months, and then we'll talk about bringing him back. You gotta' take the bad with the good with Hunter, and we need some bad in our memory before we're making these decisions.
by AdamOnFirst on May 6, 2007 1:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
2009 is the problem...
The problem comes in 2009. Assuming they resign Santana, Cuddyer and Morneau, those three together with Mauer will likely earn at least $23.0mm more than they are making in 2007. Assuming other raises (Nathan, etc) offset the savings from White and Castilla, and the Twins are looking at a 2009 payroll of at least $95.0mm with Hunter at his current $12.0mm, in the Dome.
Personally, I am very happy with Hunter's improved play over the last few years when he was injured. Many Hunter fans will say that Mr. Pohlad should open up his pocketbook for one year and keep Hunter. I think those who criticize Mr. Pohlad are probably mistaken as I expect the budget is set by Terry Ryan and submitted to the Pohlad's for approval. I expect that it has been this way for some time and it is Mr. Ryan who determines the budget based upon what he believes should be spent to be competitive. Will Mr. Ryan ask for $100mm in 2009 knowing that it will mean a $20.0mm loss for the team? I don't know, but I do know that several senior Execs have frequently stated that Torii is the face of the Twins and is thought of very highly by the people who make the decisions. And having a team in place to compete for a Championship in 2010 would be a perfect way to open the new stadium...and Torii Hunter could be a key piece to that team, assuming he can stay healthy for another 4 years.
by roger on May 6, 2007 10:47 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
They won't resign him, and they shouldn't
- The market. Implicit in the diary above is that 4/60 gets it done. I doubt it. I expect someone would pay him 6/85. That's a much different situation, and somewhere the Twins almost certainly cannot go. And Hunter would be nuts to give the Twins a "hometown discount" of that magnitude. He won't, and he shouldn't. Go get paid.
- Hunter as a player. The diary makes a massive assumption that there is relatively little risk of decline over the next 4 seasons. I think this is unwarranted. He is likely to decline over that time, especially defensively. Also, injuries are a big risk, especially with his recent history. Yes, its true that some players "buck the trend," but there is no reason that I can see to expect Hunter to do so. Realistically, he already has. His games played went from 154, to 138, to 98 over 3 seasons before rebounding to 147 last season. We'll see about this year. (Hunter has actually only been over 150 once in his career). Furthermore, injured or not, (and I don't understand why you would not see injury as decline), his defense isn't what it was, and it never will be again.
Hunter is a real good ballplayer. Replacing that sort of production will not be easy. But the next 4-6 seasons of his career are inevitably not going to be worth what he's going to get paid.
by Eric in Madison on May 6, 2007 11:50 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Great discussion
Eric, you're right. I did make two assumptions, the fist is the relatively conservative salary estimate for Hunter. The second is the optimistic perspective that he is one of the outliers in the standard age/performance bell curve. On this, it is betting against the house, I realize. But you sometimes have to do it. The bell curve is an average of all ballplayers, most of whom didn't spend enough time working out than they needed to until it was too late. Guys like Yount, Molitor, Ripken, and Jeter are unusual in that they kept their bodies young by exercising compulsively. The same is true for Hunter. This gives him a better than average chance of beating the odds. While it's till a big risk and I understand Ryan's reluctance to take it, it's the kind of bet that every GM needs to take from time to time.
And nightclub, the relevant statistic I would cite is pitches seen. I don't have those numbers in front of me, but I know Hunter is going a lot deeper into counts and having longer at bats, which increases the odds of getting a good pitch to hit. He's not walking all that much because his goal is to hit a hitters' pitch and not to walk. But he's waiting longer for that pitch than he ever has in his career.
I agree with Roger that Ryan sets the budget. But I also think that he sets it with Dave St. Peter's influence. St. Peter tells him what he thinks the revenue situation will be, and Ryan spends as much of the revenue as he can to return Pohlad little or no profit. Any profit they get is the result of better than expected ticket sales.
Revenue should be between $40 and $50 million higher in the new ballpark than in the Metrodome. So 2010 should not be the problem. But 2009 will be, unless the Twins count advance ticket purchases against the 2009 balance sheet rather than the 2010 balance sheet. A lot of fans are buying season tickets in the new stadium as we speak, and that will accelerate as we approach 2010. I expect the Twins to sell out their season tickets in 2009. If any of this revenue hits the 2009 balance sheet, it might help them get over the hump with player salaries.
by cmathewson on May 6, 2007 12:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Sorry
"And nightclub, the relevant statistic I would cite is pitches seen. I don't have those numbers in front of me, but I know Hunter is going a lot deeper into counts and having longer at bats, which increases the odds of getting a good pitch to hit. He's not walking all that much because his goal is to hit a hitters' pitch and not to walk. But he's waiting longer for that pitch than he ever has in his career."
As nightclub said, he isn't (just go to MLB.com and take the number of pitches stat divided by plate appearances) doing any such thing. His pitches per PA this year, when he's been so hot? 3.5. All last year, when he supposedly increased his patience (and turned in a year almost identical to all his others but with about three extra home runs)? 3.5. Two years ago (2005) in another typical year? 3.5. 2004, 3.5. 2003, 3.5.
He's been shockingly consistent in this, and most regards and hasn't changed numbers at all.
I'm not worried about Hunters ofense for the next four years, but his defense has already declined from age and injuries. It is still very good, but not like it used to be, and he's going t get payed for that old D. He'd be worth it in 08 and maybe 09, but after that I don't think he'd be able to put up the D.
by AdamOnFirst on May 6, 2007 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like I said,
by cmathewson on May 6, 2007 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I
It all kind of depends on how he's going. If he's good, he lays off the ridiculously bad pitches, but still takes a hard cut at the first decent fastball he sees. If he is going bad, he misses that fastball and then swings at the next pitch - the splitter in the dirt.
Everytime I see Hunter get behind 02 or 1-2 against a smart pitcher, I just think "he's screwed." Although, most hitters are screwed down against a good pitcher, but none more than Hunter.
Well, Maybe Jacque Jones.
by AdamOnFirst on May 6, 2007 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree...
by roger on May 6, 2007 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I
by AdamOnFirst on May 6, 2007 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great run-down CMath...
As for saving money on Torii and upgrading at 3b/DH with the money, have you looked at the FA possibilities there next year? It's not pretty. Mike Lowell is pretty much the best 3b available. DH doesn't offer much either. I think our best bet just might be paying Hunter, unless we can make a trade for salary at DH or 3b.
by djskilbr on May 6, 2007 1:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Again...
by djskilbr on May 7, 2007 7:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
As
by AdamOnFirst on May 7, 2007 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hunter's decline
But I have not seen the decline you point out in a couple of places above. He struggled defensively last year, and there is some question whether those struggles were injury related or a feature of long-term decline. I think it's the former.
Prior to hurting his foot in June, he made some of the most spectacular plays of his career. That catch against Ordonez in May was his best ever. With a bad foot, he couldn't get the good jump and he couldn't keep his head still while running, nor could he run nearly as fast as we have seen. The results shocked us by contrast to what we were used to seeing. But they were typical results for an average center fielder.
One blogger here has suggested that Santana had a horrible month of April, only because we expect dominance every time out. I would say the same perspectives are true of Torii: He seemed horrible only because he was not the usual super human. But that defensive slump was temporary.
We started to see a healthier Hunter last September when he made some outstanding plays. This year, he is once again getting to balls only few would get to. For example, he got to a screaming line drive in the opposite gap the other night, and I don't know of another center fielder in the AL outside of Ichiro who would have caught that one.
He's no longer the best center fielder in the game. But there are less than a handful better. And even if one or two a year pass him, he still will be in the upper eschelon for the next three years at least. When you put well above average defense together with the bat of a typical third baseman, he earns his keep.
If the Twins had options on the farm, I would have a different opinion. But I just don't see any above A ball, at least not any who can lead a team into contention. There are stop gaps, but few winning teams do so with a stop gap in center. So I stand by my opinion while respecting those who trust more to science than personal observation.
by cmathewson on May 7, 2007 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hunter....
Of course, signing Hunter means you could always trade him, too, before 2010 and really piss people off.
Someone up above mention Santana vs. M&M boys.
That's a major looksee for Terry Ryan and Co. Do you invest long-term in Johann or let him walk. If Santana gets injured, you are out a lot of salary. The sad part is that Johann won't hang around for just a 1 or 2-year extension, he needs a monster contract to stay.
Do our pitching prospects look that good? And can they carry us for five years and beyond before they, too, become over-priced throwers?
www.Twinscards.com
by twintown on May 8, 2007 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not just speed
Why do we just think in terms of replacing Hunter? Why don't we think in terms of keeping his production and adding a good bat at third base and a good DH? I don't think it will do to get complacent. We need to get better. If all we're trying to do is replace Hunter, we'll still have major holes in the line-up, and this division keeps getting better. Status quo means fourth place next year.
For the record, I agree that the priorities should be Santana, Mauer, Morneau, and Hunter, in that order. I would put Nathan fifth because I think he's the easiest one to replace, and Cuddyer is a close sixth. Between Crain, Rincon, Neshek, Garza and Morlan, the Twins have a lot of closer candidates. But they are short on bats, especially right-handed bats.
by cmathewson on May 8, 2007 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with your priorities assessment CMath...
by djskilbr on May 8, 2007 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wish I were...
So there might be significant improvement and his average is moving up from the terrible average he started with...but lets remember that the first couple weeks they were playing every couple days and those games were in sub-zero to mid 30's weather. I am hopeful he makes a huge improvement this season and will do the job in the future. I also understand that he needs to take a big step forward to do so.
by roger on May 8, 2007 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Him
by AdamOnFirst on May 8, 2007 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Span
Then again, some guys never learn how to hit a round ball with a round bat, though they can run the fastest, jump the highest and throw the hardest. A large part of Moneyball was about that very thing: Beane was an outstanding athlete but he never learned to be a good ballplayer.
It's an open question whether Span can take the next step, and it's unlikely that he can do it next year. Obviously, Ryan needs to assess the risk of using a cheap, green and underdeveloped guy or an expensive, experienced and aging guy. I don't envy him that choice.
Or he can get someone else, which seems the least probable option considering he is so concerned about character. A guy like Cameron will not cost much less than Hunter but will be a suitable replacement. Perhaps Crisp will be available. I don't know who else. That way might be harder than biting the bullet and signing Hunter.
by cmathewson on May 8, 2007 5:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
One guy I've always thought...
He's a RH bat that the D'Backs don't need with Young/Quentin/Gonzalez all in the mix (and Upton coming) and he has a similar skill set to Hunter, although he's not as good in any one area really. But he does have pop and can play okay defense. And he figures to be one of the best stopgap replacements available. He'll be 31 years old to start next season. Obviously not an ideal choice, but I'd do something like 3 years/$20 million to get him in the fold and see if Benson is ready by 2010 or so.
Just a thought.
by djskilbr on May 8, 2007 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not even just about learning...
It's not always just a learning thing. Running, jumping, throwing, that stuff all helps you in the field--but it doesn't really help you at the plate. There's only so much you can do to improve your hand-eye coordination. Some guys have it and some don't. It takes a lot of talent to have good pitch recognition and quick reactions. Some guys have it and some don't, but I don't think you really get to weed those guys out until you throw them up against the best of the best.
But your underlying point is the same. Being a good athlete is not the same as being a good ballplayer. The first helps the second, but only to a point.
by ubelmann on May 8, 2007 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right
by cmathewson on May 8, 2007 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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