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Gardy's fascination with veterans

Kelsie Smith (an upgrade over Jason Williams, IMO) had an article in today's Pioneer Press in which she interviews Ron Gardenhire and others on the need for a veteran starter. After several quotes related to Gardy's nervousness with the "young starters" she paraphrases him thus:

Before the Twins opened the series against Oakland, Gardenhire told reporters that with the July 31 trade deadline approaching, he would like another arm, a veteran starter to fill the No. 2 or No. 3 spot in the rotation.

Ignoring the fact that the Twins are in the top half of the league in pitching and in the bottom half of the league in offense, the quote unearths a major weakness in the way Gardenhire thinks about starting pitching. My perspective is age is not that important. It's all about results, and if young guys can do the job, who cares how old they are?

Obviously, it's not just about age, it's about experience. And it takes time for young pitchers to gain major league experience. They will struggle some in doing so. Gardy just does not have much patience with inexperienced pitchers. And experience is no magic bullet either. Again, it's all about results, and when a guy runs out of outs in his arm, no amount of experience will help him.

The Twins have used five pitchers this year in the fourth and fifth spots. Three of them have been abject failures: Sidney Ponson, Ramon Ortiz, and Kevin Slowey. One has been inconsistent but promising: Scott Baker. One has only had one start, so it's too early to tell: Matt Garza.

All things considered, the experienced guys have done worse than the inexperienced guys. Yet Gardy wants to blame the young pitchers because he's run out of patience with developing them. Considering how limited the options are in terms of trade chips and how much need the team has at the plate, it sends the wrong message.

It's the same message Gardy sent before spring training. "I don't trust Garza or Baker, so I want two veteran starters going into spring training." We all know how that worked out. If the Twins were able to acquire a veteran starter now, it would likely be more of the same: Jeff Weaver comes to mind. How is that an improvement over Baker or Garza?

At some point, Gardy will need to work with the arms he has. If he commits to embracing those arms rather than short changing them, he might get the results he's looking for. It seems like a more productive tack than whining about the youth of his rotation while his third baseman and DH are at the bottom of the league for their respective positions.

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Two months
Gardy wants to win games. He wants to put people on the field who have shown they belong there. He has been around long enough to know that no matter how talented they appear in the minor leagues, some players don't adjust immediately to the major leagues. And even if they do eventually adjust, it can take several years. That isn't going to do him any good in the next two months when he is trying to win a pennant.

Given that the Twins have Garza, Baker and Bonser in the rotation and Slowey as the only real backup its not surprising that Gardy is nervous about his starting pitching. None of those guys have really demonstrated they can adjust to pitching in the major leagues. There is a good possibility that one or more of them will take another year to get there.

by TT on Jul 17, 2007 9:30 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

How?
Yeah right. I want a number 2 starter too. How about we send L-Rod to the Orioles for Eric Bedard?

Pitching is the priciest commodity out there. To get it, you have to give up a lot or try retreads who are worse than the kids. So Gardy doesn't have much choice but to trust the kids and try to build them up, rather than tearing them down with public comments.

Note to Gardy: You're in a market where you can afford one top-flight starter and a bunch of kids. Get over it.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jul 17, 2007 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting...
CMath, yea, I doubt Gardy is going to get what he wants.

I find your criticism a bit snarky, yet I don't know much.

Regards,

I don't suffer from insanity...I relish every moment of it!

by the Dragon on Jul 17, 2007 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Very common, and I'm not sure you can blame him...
I'm coming to the conclusion that the reason that so many coaches pine for veterans (and this includes Rick Anderson, BTW) is that they've just less work and worry.  If a veteran struggles, you might help them, or you might just let them work it out, because "they're a veteran".  

But you have to work with kids, because you feel responsible for their success.  And the stakes with the kids are higher, and I don't mean just for the team.  I mean for the kids personally.  A veteran has had his time, made his money.  A kid is on the cusp of a dream, so the coaching takes on a lot more importance, and the worrying goes to a higher level.

That's not an excuse, but I suspect it's the same everywhere.  My experience in the business world is certainly similar.  Imagine these choices:

a)  a somewhat competent person with 10 years of experience in a technology who may not embarass themselves but isn't likely to shine or
b)  a really, really bright college grad who has little experience with the technology but could eventually become a star developer.  

A manager will choose 'a' 90% of the time.  Pesonally, I think it's usually the wrong choice, but I can understand it, because 'b' is a probably a little more risk and certainly a LOT more work.  The performance long-term is harder to embrace, while the immediate trials are right in the manager's face.  

So while I agree that the comment is pretty ludicrous, I don't think it's probably the same thought that the majority of managers have, both in baseball and outside of it.  

by Twins Geek on Jul 17, 2007 11:21 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The trick
is finding a balance between 'a' and 'b'.  You want to have a vision for the future but in a business, it's unforgiveable to ignore the present.  It's what the Twins have tried to do, but they've made some bad choices for those in column 'a'.

But you have to work with kids, because you feel responsible for their success.

Don't forget that the kids' success means Anderson and Gardenhire's success as well.  Coaches aren't just concerned with the future of their players, they're concerned with their own jobs.

by Jesse on Jul 17, 2007 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not uniform
In my place of employment, if you can get a head count, it has to be a recent college graduate. They want to develop their talent within their value structure. So they're willing to pay for two years of low productivity while the candidate descends the learning curve because it pays big dividends after those two years.

I understand that managers and coaches want less work. Doesn't everybody? But it's in my job description that I need to adapt to the changing business landscape and make the best of the resources I have. It just doesn't help to whine about it it, least of all publicly.

It should be in Gardy's job description that he needs to finish developing guys. I generally like him, and you can't argue with his success. But he is not very good at developing guys. He'll use the rookies as little as possible and publicly complain about all the rookies on his team. He prefers marginal veterans to talented rookies every time. He'll develop guys, but you have to drag him kicking and screaming through the season if you have more than one or two at a time.

In this market, it would serve him better to embrace the rookies and get the most out of them, rather than constantly messing with his line-up to avoid using them. His attitude is expedient. He wants to win today. But it's a long season, and the sooner you can get the rookies up to speed the better your team will be in the home stretch. Delaying their development doesn't help at all. And it usually doesn't help their development to bench them repeatedly and complain about them in the press.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jul 17, 2007 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

bingo!
It's really a bureaucratic mindset:  the guy who has superiors who could can him fears looking bad more than he desires improvement.

Finding a "veteran" #2 (or #3?!?!?!?!?!) is the "safe" approach; as long as you don't trade for someone who's obviously washed up you can defend the "baseball thinking" of the trade (after all, the vet had "done it in the past" - who really knew he'd stink it up this time?).

Guys have to be VERY secure in their job to hire people who are raw but talented - there aren't many people out there willing to risk the step back before the talent takes two steps forward.

by BD57 on Jul 20, 2007 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bureaucrats
Guys have to be VERY secure in their job to hire people who are raw but talented - there aren't many people out there willing to risk the step back before the talent takes two steps forward.

Successful companies don't put people in a position where they can fail, they make sure they have the support they need to succeed. And if they discover the person needs too much support they get rid of them and hire someone who can do the job. Even law firms, that really rely on developing talented lawyers for their success, don't stick raw recruits into situations where they can fail the client.

The minor leagues are for development. The major leagues are for guys who can already play at that level.

by TT on Jul 24, 2007 12:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not my experience
Successful companies don't put people in a position where they can fail, they make sure they have the support they need to succeed.

My experience is: "Here's a phone, here's a computer, show me what you got."

Most managers I've worked with have thrown me into the shark-infested surf during rip tide and watched me swim and navigate to safety. But a lot of people never make it. It's their way of weeding people out. But once you do demonstrate some competence, you get a modicum of support. The ironic thing is, the less support you need because of your experience, the more they're willing to give you.

The minor leagues are for development. The major leagues are for guys who can already play at that level.

I'm not going to argue with Zeno's paradox here. But I just want to point out that it is a rather large adjustment to the major leagues. Major league pitchers make fewer mistakes, so you better be ready for them. Major league hitters don't miss many mistakes, so you better not make many of them. As you point out regularly, lots of guys succeed at the AAA level and never make that adjustment to the major leagues. You never know whether someone will until you give them a shot. Guys who appear ready to play at the major leagues based on their minor league play are more likely to succeed. But there are no guarantees. So you don't know if a a guy "can already play at that level" until you throw him into the surf and watch him sink or swim.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jul 24, 2007 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Minor Leagues
.  Pesonally, I think it's usually the wrong choice,

I wonder if you would feel that way if you were the customer who was the victim of the young person's "learning experience". Or the boss of the manager who failed to deliver.

In the real world people are hired and paid for what they can produce right now. You hire bright people, give them a job they can handle, and then move them to more difficult tasks as they gain the experience needed to be successful at them. There is no minor leagues.

by TT on Jul 17, 2007 12:14 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Learning Experience
Let me start by saying I think I may be in the minority on this.

Both personally and professionally, I would much rather deal with someone's learning experience causing issues.  In reality there are very few mistakes that will cause long-lasting long-term issues.  If a fee is charged or product damaged - it can be refunded or replaced.  You can be compensated for your time.  Health care is really where mistakes are costly, but other than that?  Not much comes to mind.

I would rather take part in someone's learning process.  If I have to deal with a mistake - so be it.  If I have an experience with a company, their employee knows there stuff but doesn't give a crap you'd better have an excellent product in my book.  How in the world do you ask for a refund if the product was OK, but you can tell the person's heart wasn't in it?

Yes, it can be frustrating at times dealing with learning experiences.  However, some experience can only be gained in very specific ways (read: learn by doing).  How realistic is it for a minor-leaguer to learn to hit major league pitching while in the minors?  It is similar, but the true barometer of how a player will succeed in the majors is their play over a reasonable time in the majors.

by GACTwinFan on Jul 17, 2007 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Young vs. Old
With an oldster, you often got a track record. If they wish to keep their job, they know they have to develop new tricks, try harder, learn. If not, they get truly bypassed. If they don't want to listen to someone who could supposedly extend their career, you can quit, and often can afford to do so if willing to find the job that will allow you to operate in a manner you are accustomed to operating.

The youngster is full of himself and wants to succeed. Often, if you are in a competitive environment, you already can consider yourslef one of the better of the best. The secret in abseball is that you have to have a system on-line that will develop talent consistently and thru a process that won't create conflict.

If there is conflict in baseball, it is often moving someone thru a system too fast, which often has an upside as you see what your competition is ahead of you and can compensate. But then you always run the risk of feeling failure if you go backwards.

Garza is a perfect example. He went thru the system fast. He's good, but far from the step off the college pitching mound into the majors good. Some of it is also growing up. These are young guys who suddenly ahd a lot of $$$ thrust in their direction, are facing responsibilities like living away from home and family and travelling, and feeling a need to produce.

Slowey is another example. He ahs progressed fast, and now takes a step back and has to refine. I think he'll be doing just fine and will pitch somewhere in the majors for a long time, if not with the Twins.

Matt Moses is an example of someone who is being pushed just a tad harder that his abilities, to see if he can meet the challenge. But rather than think of it as a step back, you have to keep working (and listening) to the coaches.

I keep thinking of Pat Neshek, who was going gangbusters at New Britain and then was shipped abckwards to Ft. Myers a few years back, given the excuse that it would give him more time to work on closing skills as the Twins ahd to give time to a higher rated prospect at AA New Britain. Sure, Pat would rather be an AA middle relief guy than an a-ball closer, but it wasn't a matter of skills, just pecking order, which is something you also have toa dapt to.

Like when you apply for a job and someone else gets it. It doesn't mean they are betetr than you, just that maybe they fulfill some hidden agenda of the company(single with more time or cheaper or the company sees them as fast tracking in the company system). Hey, you may be willing to work overtime, take a pay cut, and want to work until your dying day with the company, but you can't expect the company to be looking out for you when they have their own agenda.

Part of the Twins problem right now is that they wish to win and continue to win and somehow they feel they can't do that with more than one or two rookies on the payroll. If this was a club battling Kansas City for the cellar, you'd see them running out the freshmen and sophs bigtime.

I think that's wrong, that you can open the season with up to two rookies in the line-up and at least three in the pitching staff (including bullpen) and work in a couple more during the year, if the talent is there. And still win, if the talent is there.

check out Twinkies autograph collection at www.TwinsCards.com

by twintown on Jul 17, 2007 5:50 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Payroll issues
In a perfect world, the Twins would be able to season every player fully before calling him up. But they sometimes have holes to fill and they have to let guys learn on the job in those cases. That's a consequence of the payroll, mostly.

Also, no matter how much seasoning a guy has in the minors, there's always an adjustment to the majors. Payroll also dictates that you need more than a couple of kids on the roster. Whether through need or necessity, grooming kids for the major leagues comes with the territory for this coaching staff.

I would argue that the Twins are on the conservative side with moving prospects along. They start their college guys at lower levels than other organizations. So when they do move up, it seems like they're rushed. For example, if Garza had started in High A ball in his rookie season--as other teams do with highly rated college players--he would have reached AAA at the same time while moving up a level at a time. Because he started in the Appy League, it seemed like he was rushed.

He was rushed to the majors last year. And that was necessitated by two major injuries to the starting staff. But he wasn't rushed to AAA.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jul 17, 2007 6:28 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Conservative
Mike Pelfrey, drafted number 9 the same year Garza was drafted, started last season in the FSL the same as Garza.

Brian Bogusevic, drafted immediately before Garza, ended last season in the low A Sally league.

Jacob Marceaux the next college starter selected after Garza started and ended last year in the FSL after starting his first year in the short-season New York-Penn league.

I don't think the Twins have been particularly conservative. About half the college starters taken in the first round in 2005 have reached AAA. Players who jump two levels, much less three like Garza, are rare in most systems.

by TT on Jul 18, 2007 12:07 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Garza
Garza is also a rare pitcher and a much brighter young star than those others.
Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on Jul 18, 2007 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not in 2005
Garza is also a rare pitcher and a much brighter young star than those others.

Apparently not in the eyes of most of the teams in baseball since they skipped over him in the first round of the draft. For instance, Pelfrey and Bougusevic were both drafted ahead of Garza.

Perhaps if the Twins had started him in high A ball, he would never have developed into the prospect he has. Did they treat him "conservatively" or did they put him in a position where he could have success? I think the latter.

by TT on Jul 19, 2007 11:20 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

They
That is how he was drafted.  That was a mistake.  Sam Bowie was drafted ahead of Michael Jordon.  Matt Garza is universally lauded as one of the very brightest young arms in baseball.
Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on Jul 19, 2007 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Out of College
Matt Garza is universally lauded as one of the very brightest young arms in baseball.

That is after he ran through the minor leagues. It has nothing to do with where he played his first season.

by TT on Jul 24, 2007 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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