Mets Involve Church In Bid for Santana

by Jesse on Jan 24, 2008 3:32 PM EST in News

Who is this now? Did you say "Ryan Church"?

Online at the Boston Herald, Michael Silverman says that the most recent activity in the race for Johan still has the Mets as the front-runner, except some of the pieces have changed. Fernando Martinez is rumored to be included, as well as a combination of pitchers Guerra, Humber and Pelfrey. Carlos Gomez is NOT mentioned, but outfielder Ryan Church IS.

Church, 29, spent time in the Cleveland farm system before arriving in Montreal. In the Expos' minor league system he won their minor league player of the year award after his first season. That year, 2004, he hit .343/.428/.620 in AAA Edmonton as a 25-year old. Since then he's spent some time in the majors, moreso recently, and after parts of four years and in 997 at-bats owns a very respectable .271/.348/.462 line.

I still prefer a deal that involves the Red Sox, although I'm torn between which is the better offer; the one involving Jacoby Ellsbury or the one involving Jon Lester. Jed Lowrie I'm positive on. Everything behind those three players is up for debate, and nothing too different from pitchers from the Mets or Yankees (outside of Hughes naturally).

This thing is far from over. Although I did have a dream last night that the Mets got Johan for Martinez, Gomez and Pelfrey.

Seriously, who dreams about this crap?

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Comments

Church wouldn't be a horrible addition

I think a Pelfrey, Martinez, Church & one or two pitching prospects would be a decent return. Honestly, as long as we get a decent return and this thing gets over, I'll be happy.

Church reminds me a bit of Cuddyer at the plate, so that wouldn't be a horrible addition. He'd be able to fill center nicely until one of the youngins is ready.

by Joshs Thoughts on Jan 24, 2008 3:43 PM EST reply actions

Church

Church potentially makes this thing a whole lot better. He HAS played a bunch of center in the past, but more in the corners. Can he man center for a year? His numbers in center seemed decent, but I don't pay much attentio to defensive stats, so I wouldn't really know how to read them very well...

Rotoworld is saying he COULD patrol center, but more suited to a corner..

BP has him as roughly average in center field...

He also doesn't hit lefties so well..

I bet they wish they hadn't sent Lastings Milledge to the Nationals for Church and a backup catcher. I'd have liked to get Milledge...

Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on Jan 24, 2008 3:49 PM EST reply actions

Seriously....

Young, Milledge, Cuddyer and Kubel? Those are four outfielders I could live with. Throw in Morneau and Mauer, and you've got yourself a potentially dangerous offense.

by Jesse on Jan 24, 2008 5:30 PM EST up reply actions

Doesn't make sense

Before they traded Milledge, I thought the Mets could have had Santana for Milledge, Martinez Pelfrey and Humber. Now they're rumored to give up Guerra in addition to what they got for Milledge and Martinez, Pelfrey and Humber. Why they wouldn't offer Milledge originally and keep Guerra in the process is beyond me.

If Church can play center every day for a while, I can see it. But the Twins would still need to find a lead-off hitter, something Milledge could do well.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jan 24, 2008 4:36 PM EST reply actions

If we do this trade...

...and Church is the centerfielder, who is the leadoff hitter? With a lineup of Mauer, Morneau, Harris, Everett, Lamb, Young, Church, Cuddyer & Kubel as DH...who?

But with this deal, we do not have a leadoff hitter. Would this cause Gardy to find a spot for Punto. Maybe Gardy could have Punto play third and leadoff with Lamb as DH...pushing Kubel to a reserve and pinch hitter? HELP!

by roger @ Twinkie Town on Jan 24, 2008 5:04 PM EST reply actions

Probably Harris

He wouldn't be ideal by any means. But Brendan Harris looks more like a lead-off hitter than any of the others. On the other hand, Gardy did have Jones hitting lead-off for two years, and Church's 28-year-old stats are very similar.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jan 24, 2008 5:14 PM EST up reply actions

Leadoff

If you've got guys that can hit well from 2-8 (and a guy like Everett at #9), I'm not so worried about #1. In the AL, I really think the idea that the "a leadoff hitter is only the leadoff hitter in the 1st inning" philosophy has to be remembered. If Harris can get on base, great. Just put a bunch of good hitters together and see what happens.

by SethSpeaks on Jan 24, 2008 9:48 PM EST up reply actions

not ideal

but we do have some guy who can post a .400 OBP... He takes good at bats too (when he isn't watching that dang first pitch go by). He might be a decent candidate, even though he does not have a lot of speed.

by diehardtwinsfan on Jan 25, 2008 6:45 PM EST up reply actions

Studying his stats

He reminds me a lot of Jacque Jones.

Church age 28
144 G 470 AB 128 H 43 2B 1 3B 15 HR 70 RBI 49 BB 107 K .272/.349/.464/.813

Jones age 28
136 G 517 AB 157 H 33 2B 1 3B 16 HR 69 RBI 21 BB 105 K .304/.333/.464/.797

Church has better plate discipline and more doubles, Jones had more singles. Otherwise, their stats are eerily close.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jan 24, 2008 5:11 PM EST reply actions

Milledge...

Don't give me this Church crap. Yeah, he's a nice enough player, but he's only under team control for three more years and if the Mets really wanted to deal the Twins a ML-ready outfielder, they should've held on to Lastings Milledge a bit longer rather than worrying about acquiring Brian Schneider.

by ubelmann on Jan 24, 2008 5:13 PM EST reply actions

That's what I thought

....when the Mets traded Milledge "Oh they're out of the Santana deal now." If they wanted Santana, they would have held onto Milledge until a deal was done, knowing that the Twins wanted a center fielder. That's why this makes no sense.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jan 24, 2008 5:16 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Makes no sense

Kinda makes it look like Omar is just throwing other outfielders into the mix so he doesn't have to part with both Gomez and Martinez.

Bill: We like Gomez and Martinez.

Omar: Well that'll be tough to do. So...ummm...well...here, take Church!

Bill: Who?

Omar: Great guy, plays outfield! Just what you're looking for!

I'm not sure I'd be satisfied with a deal that includes both Gomez and Martinez...settling for Martinez and Church is just ridiculous.

by Jesse on Jan 24, 2008 5:24 PM EST up reply actions

Church

strikes me as a guy who can play "filler"....which really, comparing to offers from the Yankees and Red Sox, is most of what the Mets deals are made up of. Even Martinez, the "prize" of the group, is hard to project at this point and when you do project him (nice work over at SBG on that one btw), he's not necessarily a player who blows you out of the water. If you're into comparibles, at least.

Including Church does nothing for me. I still prefer a package from Boston.

by Jesse on Jan 24, 2008 5:21 PM EST up reply actions

Boston vs. Mets

Crisp > Church
Lester > Pelfrey
Lowrie > Martinez
Masterson > Humber
Kalish < Guerra

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jan 24, 2008 5:39 PM EST up reply actions

The alligator always eats the bigger/better...

...give me a second...ok got it.

by Jesse on Jan 24, 2008 5:45 PM EST up reply actions

I agree, but...

I am really starting to question whether the Red Sox are really in this thing at all. I love the Crisp, Lester, Lowrie, Masterson deal, and if Kalish or anyone else is thrown in, great. I would think that Smith would be thrilled with that. I can't imagine that even with Martinez and Gomez, the Mets could come up with a better deal.

by SethSpeaks on Jan 24, 2008 9:52 PM EST up reply actions

Agreed

and I'll go one further. Church may resemble a 28 year old Jaque Jones, but his major league totals line:

.271 .348 .462 810

Lokks even more like a player we already have on our team, a 29 year old team leader named Cuddyer:

.270 .346 .450 796

I know Church would be cheaper than Cuddyer, but with Santana gone salary isn't an issue. Clubhouse leadership would be. Church "can", but doesn't play center field.

This makes no sense.

by montanatwinsfan on Jan 24, 2008 10:02 PM EST up reply actions

Worth noting

is that Church has played in RFK during his career, which is significantly depressant to offensive numbers. Unless I'm completely mistaken.

by TMoney on Jan 24, 2008 10:57 PM EST up reply actions

I think your right

and this comparison is probably neither here nor there except to say that this addition just doesn't really make sense to me, but what the hey here are there minor league stats and they still look awfully similar, with Church showing a touch more power:

Cuddyer (7 years in minors): .290 .379 .485 864

Church (7 years in minors): .292 .375 .506 881

by montanatwinsfan on Jan 25, 2008 12:01 AM EST up reply actions

I think Cuddyer's a better hitter...

personally. Church's numbers are probably higher in part because he's been a part-time player. He's only had above 268 ab's ONCE, last year, where he had 470. And he's 29 and doesn't hit lefties. He's basically pretty similar to Mike Lamb to me actually, only from the OF.

by djskilbr on Jan 25, 2008 12:05 AM EST up reply actions

Church's D

I'm skeptical Church is a legit center fielder. Granted, he has posted good zone rating numbers and other stats in center, but hasn't played enough center field innings to make them all that meaningful.

Here's why I'm skeptical: Church's bat would play as a huge plus in center. So much so he'd probably only need to be adequate out there to make it worthwhile. I mean, the guy's got a career OPS+ of 113 in almost 1000 career at bats; and BP gives him a translated 2007 (his first year of substantial playing time) line of 282/361/498, suggesting RFK's really masking his value. So at 29 years old, why hasn't he ever been given a shot at it? Something's fishy.

Granted, I've never seen him play (Nats games don't get a lot of coverage), and sometimes organizations can develop blind spots with players. Maybe that's the case here.

But still, it's not like the Natspos have had Grady Sizemore blocking him in center field (whoops, perhaps a bad example).

Anyway, if the Twins think Church can hold his own in center, he could be a real find. But I'm skeptical. Besides, one can argue defense is more important to the Twins now than offense in center, since a big goal of 2008 will be to establish a young (predominantly FB) rotation. Not easy to do with balls shooting the gaps constantly. Who knows?

I still prefer the Red Sox deal. But if the Twins like Church in center, I suppose there's enough intangibles to what the Mets are peddling (Johan goes to the NL; better star potential in the return) to make it reasonable.

As for Milledge, I got to believe he was offered at some point early on, and the Twins declined. Right? The Mets have been hot for Johan all along, so it would seem logical they at least threw his name out there. (At this point, knowing what I know now, I almost wish the Twins hadn't done the Young deal and just dealt Johan for something like Milledge, Martinez, Mulvey, and prospect. You keep Garza and Bartlett that way, and still get a potential star LF (with less hype, less ceiling, but less performance red flags).)

by jianfu on Jan 24, 2008 5:18 PM EST reply actions

Monroe/Church Platoon?

The only way this works is if its a Monroe/Church platoon in center, or if they can trade Church, Kubel, or Cuddyer. Church is terrible against lefties. Plus, this will make it difficult to get Mauer any DH days, as Church/Monroe/Kubel will always be fighting for the DH ABs. The advantage is that our bench will improve dramatically (frequently having two of Church/Monroe/Kubel/Mauer sitting).

If he can do this, I hope they can turn someone around for an infield prospect (2b,3b,ss). That or he discovers how to hit lefties.

The one concern I don't have is the leadoff issue. I'm completely comfortable with any of Mauer/Kubel/Harris leading off. I know Kubel isn't exactly a speed deamon, but I am a strong believer that OBP and number of pitches seen are more important than speed. I know little about Harris, but he seems like he walks enough, and might have the OBP to get it done. I just assume that as a middle infielder he's not slow.

by snolls on Jan 24, 2008 5:25 PM EST reply actions

Church

doesn't solve anything...he just complicates playing time. Anyone can, but Church shouldn't lead off. He can play center but as you said can't hit southpaws, which is trouble...we can't afford space on the bench for anymore "part time" players. I might, might, take him over Monroe...but those dice have already been cast.

If this deal starts with Martinez and Church, there better be a lot more to the back end than we've heard. Actually, no, never mind, this deal just shouldn't happen.

by Jesse on Jan 24, 2008 5:29 PM EST up reply actions

No, no, no..........

Makes Crisp look even more attractive, especially if you get Boston to add a fifth player to the package (Lowrie, Lester, Masterson and.......)

I would rather rape the Mets system of even more prospects and just go the free agent route for what's left on the centerfield market.

Hey, anyone notice that the Mets released coach Ricky Henderson (replacing him with former Twin Tom Nieto). Maybe if the Mets had worked Henderson into the package...player/coach...of course, I'm joking.

check out Twinkies autograph collection at www.TwinsCards.com

by twintown on Jan 24, 2008 6:09 PM EST reply actions

I don't mind Church...

I've always liked him and do think he could be a real find. I do agree that I think I still prefer either of the Sox offers, however.

And I do find Omar's dealings to be quite odd.

But have any of you thought that maybe we didn't want Milledge? With Young already labeled as a "problem child" and acquired, is it possible that the Twins didn't want an even worse one in Milledge?

I don't know, and maybe I'm overthinking this, but that's what my gut says. And I like Milledge, so I would have loved him. Just not surprised if the Twins didn't want him with Delmon, personally.

by djskilbr on Jan 24, 2008 7:12 PM EST reply actions

Do not worry

I too dreamt that the Santana deal had gone through. Unlike you, a specific package was not discussed. It was to the Mets though. So, us together, we may be prophetic.

by TMoney on Jan 24, 2008 8:24 PM EST reply actions

Dudes

Step away from the keyboards. Take a night off from the blog. Dream about large women.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jan 24, 2008 9:08 PM EST reply actions

When you say large women...

...do you mean someone like Charlize Theron, or maybe the gal on American Idol last evening who Simon got into a bit of a tussle over his comments about her attire?

by roger @ Twinkie Town on Jan 24, 2008 9:50 PM EST up reply actions

Princess Bride

I was thinking about the line from the movie.

I can't really comment on particular large women. But I will say, I prefer a girl with curves to these skeletal waifs that pass as fantasy girls these days.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jan 24, 2008 9:59 PM EST up reply actions

mmm

Scarlett Johanssen. That is all.

by ravenfly on Jan 25, 2008 4:12 PM EST up reply actions

Scarlett

Scarlett Johanson isn't... large...

Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on Jan 25, 2008 11:12 PM EST up reply actions

No

But she is curvy, naturally curvy.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jan 25, 2008 11:16 PM EST up reply actions

Curvy

Curvy... implies other things these days I would say. I wouldn't call her curvy... I'd say...

I dunno

Scarlett is my #1 starlet/person/whatever. If I was Gleeman, she'd be the FGoAoG.com, so I'm very picky about labels...

Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on Jan 25, 2008 11:20 PM EST up reply actions

Numbers

What we have here is a failure to communicate.

Curvy is good. Curvy is our friend. I'm not talking about hoochie mama curvy. I'm not talking Sarina WIlliams curvy, I'm talking, well...

...when I was young, Racquel Welch was the gold standard of curvy. Her measurements:

36 (D) /24/36

Scarlett's measurements:

40 (DD)/24/36

That, my friend, is curvy. I agree, Scarlett is the sexiest girl in show biz right now. And she is my new gold standard. Or should I say platinum.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jan 25, 2008 11:58 PM EST up reply actions

Really? that big

Scarlett has 40 DD breasts, you sure about that? She certainly has very nice sweater pillows, but 40 DD? That seems rather large from all the films I have seen her in. And yes, she certainly is very damn sexy.

Anyone want Jose Vidro? Please?

by larrybowa on Jan 26, 2008 12:10 AM EST up reply actions

Well

I don't really know. They don't publish those stats on Rotoworld.

But I dated a girl in college who was 44 DD, and Scarlett looks every bit that girl except with a smaller frame. Of course, if the camera adds 10 lbs, one wonders what else it adds.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jan 26, 2008 1:14 AM EST up reply actions

I had the same in college...

Cmath (man, tough to adjust after that) and I would agree with that assessment. I'd say Scarlett is about that.

by djskilbr on Jan 26, 2008 2:04 AM EST up reply actions

Brick

She knows she got everything
a woman needs to get a man, yeah.
How can she use, the things she use
36-24-36, what a winning hand!

Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on Jan 27, 2008 10:35 PM EST up reply actions

thought

To help keep the Yanks from getting Santana I wonder if a 3 team deal couldn't include Boston sending Crisp or Lowrie or Masterson for a lesser prospect so we can also get the bounty from the Mets (Pelfry, Martinez, Guera, Humber, and Church) and the Yanks get left behind.

by doofus04 on Jan 24, 2008 9:47 PM EST reply actions

make this deal ASAP twins!

this is a pretty good deal from top to bottom in a fill-in for center fielder in ryan church who can hold his own until fernando martinez is ready with a future outfield of cuddyer,young and martinez, and mike pelfery would step into the rotation right aways even though he struggled last year we wasnt the met #1 prospect for nothing. philip humber could compete for a spot for the rotation and if he is not ready could start the year in AAA and then move up to the twins and guerra could continue to develop. so this deal makes sense for both teams.

by MauerPower07 on Jan 24, 2008 10:56 PM EST reply actions

Leadoff Hitter

As to the leadoff hitter -- there's always a chance that Alexi Casilla wins the 2B job (I'm sure the team wants him to) and Harris moves over to a platoon at 3B with Lamb and to spell Everett at SS. This leaves Punto in the dust a bit, but who cares?

In the Mets deal, I'd rather get the prospects and trade one of them or one of our current prospects for Crisp (won't take much) and at least you're guaranteed plus defense in CF and might have more upside than Church as well.

by sportsvulture on Jan 25, 2008 12:25 PM EST reply actions

Well...

what about just flipping Church for Crisp?

The Sox have been looking for a LH bat that can play OF. Church would fit that bill.

by djskilbr on Jan 25, 2008 3:41 PM EST reply actions

I don't know

With Ellsbury and Drew, the only non lefty OF is Manny, and I can't see him getting pinch hit for.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jan 25, 2008 4:05 PM EST up reply actions

well...

I don't know exactly WHY they want one, but they've been linked to Brad Wilkerson lately. Church is just as good of a bet as him to me.

by djskilbr on Jan 25, 2008 4:17 PM EST up reply actions

redsox search for lhb

From what I understand the Red Sox are looking for a lhb to help spell Youk at 1b. And Wilkerson has extensive experience at 1b, and since he can pretty much play all the OF spots, his versatility and at one time great patience has certain appeal to them. If all they were looking for was a lefty OFer then, yes Church would seem like the better player of the two.

Anyone want Jose Vidro? Please?

by larrybowa on Jan 25, 2008 5:50 PM EST up reply actions

hmmm...

I didn't realize that.

by djskilbr on Jan 25, 2008 5:52 PM EST up reply actions

the deal

Hi . Mets fan here. I unlike most mets fans would be willing to give up F-Mart to get the deal done. heres my package:

F-mart- Top projected mets position prospect
Guerra- Mets top projected pitching prospect
Humber- projected #3 type pitcher
Church- you know his stats
Anderson Hernandez- ss/2b prospect who hit 301 in AAA new orleans.

I heard you guys are flush with pitching prospects and would rather have position players , is that true?

by Gil the Pill on Jan 28, 2008 11:05 PM EST reply actions

Hi Gil

Thanks for stopping by.

We're not nearly as flush with pitching prospects as we have been in years past, because many of those prospects are now on the MLB pitching staff. We still have a lot of pitchers who are putting up good numbers in the minors, but none of them are as high-end as a Liriano or Garza.

The Twins have some promising position player prospects, but they're mostly at AA or lower at this point; a couple could be in AAA this summer. It's important that whatever position players the Twins get in this deal, they're either A) MLB-ready or B) MLB-ready by next year.

Martinez I'm high on, but he's so young right now that his risk is just as high as his ceiling. Church does absolutely nothing for me; while I might prefer him to Craig Monroe, I don't see Church providing the Twins with a whole lot more than could be provided with what we have. The last position player on your list, Hernandez, doesn't strike me as a player of interest. He'll be 25 this summer, has a 3-to-1 strikeout-to-walk ratio, and has a minor league OPS of .680.

If I'm Bill Smith and you're Omar, I wouldn't take this deal because of the last two players on the list. Now if instead (we'll leave Gomez out of the scenario) you put up Mike Carp (2007, AA: age 21, .251/.337/.387, 11 HR, 16 2B, 359 AB, 38 BB, 75 SO) and Nick Evans (2007, A+: age 21, .286/.374/.476, 15 HR, 25 2B, 378 AB, 53 BB, 64 SO) and I might be tempted.

But if I'm honest, I don't think the Mets have the best players to offer the Twins. I think they're the most likely winner of the sweepstakes at this juncture, but I still think Boston and the Yankees have players that would help the Twins more. Outside of Martinez and Gomez, and I'm not even that high on those two when compared to other position players on the table, the Mets don't have much with which to supplement a deal on the back end.

by Jesse on Jan 28, 2008 11:31 PM EST up reply actions

For me...

the Mets package would have to be all of Martinez, Gomez, Pelfrey, Guerra, and Mulvey to even sniff topping either of the Sox' offers.

That being said, I could live with a Church/Martinez/Pelfrey/Guerra/Mulvey deal just because of the switch in leagues (the Sox really scare me with Santana, a lot) and the fact that I'm not all that high on Gomez. Church is likely to have a better 2008 than Gomez.

by djskilbr on Jan 29, 2008 2:50 AM EST reply actions

djskilbr package

There is no way Omar sends that package to the Twins for Santana. If thats what Smith is waiting for then I hope you guys enjoy Santana for his last year in Minnesota. The Redsox and Yankees are not so hot on getting Santana, they just don't want the other to get him. So in 09 the Mets will just give him 25 mil per for 6 years and keep their prospects.

by Gil the Pill on Jan 29, 2008 12:32 PM EST up reply actions